Speaking of apologies ….
Posted by stuart on Apr 22nd, 2008
2008
Apr 22
Perhaps the Chinese mob that attacked an American who was simply doing some shopping should reflect on their actions and apologise. Read all about it here.
More importantly, China needs to act immediately to get their house in order before things get completely out of control.
April 22nd, 2008 at 4:58 pm
1. The house is in order, thank you. Everything is progressing as planned. Hu’s administration is enjoying great support from the people now. No one will talk about inflation, corruption, etc.
2. This is an internal matter for China, and the US better stay out of it. We must not allow this to become a precedence now that DL and Hu Jia are citizens of Paris.
April 22nd, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Bill – how nice of Beijing to allow Hu Jia to convalesce in Paris. Things are indeed looking up.
April 23rd, 2008 at 12:10 am
“No one will talk about inflation, corruption, etc”
You r worng, Bill, we are always talking about these problems too. Just search in Chinese, you will find out how many discussions about these problems. You only know the information in ENGLISH, however, you don’t know the information in CHINESE.
April 23rd, 2008 at 1:49 am
Bill, read about this.
China, Tibet and the Propaganda Olympics
By WILLIAM BLUM
The latest protests in Tibet and crackdown by Chinese authorities have brought up the usual sermonizing in the West about Chinese government oppression and illegitimate control of the Tibetans. Although I have little love for the Chinese leaders — I think they run a cruel system — some proper historical perspective is called for here.
Many Tibetans regard themselves as autonomous or independent, but the fact remains that the Beijing government has claimed Tibet as part of China for more than two centuries. The United States made its position clear in 1943:
“The Government of the United States has borne in mind the fact that the Chinese Government has long claimed suzerainty over Tibet and that the Chinese constitution lists Tibet among areas constituting the territory of the Republic of China. This Government has at no time raised a question regarding either of these claims. (See “Foreign Relations of the United States, 1943, China”, Department of State, 1957, p.630.)
After the communist revolution in 1949 US officials tended to be more equivocal about the matter.
Even as the Chinese were attacking Tibetan protestors, New York City Police were beating up and literally threatening to kill “Free Tibet” protestors in front of the United Nations. It’s all on video.
The Washington Post recently ran a story about how the Chinese people largely support the government suppression of the Tibetan protesters. The heading was: “Beijing’s Crackdown Gets Strong Domestic Support. Ethnic Pride Stoked by Government Propaganda.” The article spoke of how Beijing officials have “educated” the public about Tibet “through propaganda”.
That’s a rather interesting concept. Imagine the Post or any other American mainstream media saying that those Americans who support the war in Iraq do so because they’ve been educated by government propaganda. … Ditto those who support the war in Afghanistan. … Ditto those who supported the bombing of Yugoslavia. … Ditto scores of other US invasions, bombings, overthrows, and miscellaneous war crimes spanning more than half a century.
Now Germany’s foreign minister has warned China that its response to the crisis in Tibet may jeopardize the Summer Olympics in Beijing. “The German federal government is saying to the Chinese government: be transparent! We want to know exactly what is going on in Tibet.” He also warned China to avoid any violent measures in its standoff with Tibetan protesters. Human rights organizations have demanded that Coca-Cola, Visa, General Electric, and other international companies explain their dealings with the Chinese government as it prepares to host the Summer Games. The French Foreign Minister floated the prospect of boycotting the Games’ opening ceremony because of China’s response to the protests. And the president of the European Parliament said European countries should not rule out threatening China with a boycott if violence continued in Tibet.
It’s nice to see the West’s conscience stirred up. They’re real good about such things, when the target is not one of their own, particularly against a communist country. In 1980, 62 nations — including the United States, Canada, West Germany, Japan, and Israel — boycotted the Olympics in Moscow because the previous year the Soviet Union had invaded Afghanistan. Four years later, the Olympics were held in Los Angeles. Not a single member of “The Free World” boycotted it, even though the previous year the United States had invaded Grenada and overthrown the government, with a lot less political justification than the Russians had for invading Afghanistan. The Grenada invasion was as much lacking in legality and morality as the invasion of Iraq in 2003.
The Soviet Union and 13 of its allies stayed away from the Los Angeles Olympics, but when the Russians announced the boycott they cited only security concerns. President Reagan had declared at the time of the invasion that Grenada was “a Soviet-Cuban colony being readied as a major military bastion to export terror and undermine democracy, but we got there just in time.” One would think that Moscow would have mentioned Grenada at least for the satisfaction of throwing Afghanistan and the 1980 boycott in Washington’s face. The fact that the Russians made no such mention was a measure of how unconcerned they were about the tiny island nation and its alleged future as a major Soviet military bastion. The magnitude and variety of Reagan administration lies that accompanied the invasion of Grenada may have stood as a record until the Bush administration topped it in Iraq 20 years later.
April 23rd, 2008 at 9:24 am
Both sides have to calm down. Violence can solving nothing except making the situation worse.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 am
Stuart, you are just a typical smarmy asiaphile, lecturing us Chinese on how to behave. Imagine if Chinese demanded that America hand back California, Texas and New Mexico to Mexico, demanded that all whites get out of Australia and New Zealand. Imagine the uproar. You would be getting Chinese in those respective placed being lynched in the streets. Even if there was a sniff of China interfering in the domestic affairs of any Western nation, the outrage would be about one-hundred fold that of the very well justified Chinese reaction to Western media bias.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:56 am
Stuart, you as a member of the most violent, aggressive race in all of human history ie the Anglo Saxon race, should just shut the hell up and stop lecturing Chinese. Chinese civilization is probably the most peaceable and non-warlike in all of human history. China was in contact with Africa well before the Europeans. But just compare the records of China vs Europe. China traded with Africans, gave Africans GIFTS as evidence of the glory of China. Europeans enslaved Africans by the tens of millions in history’s greatest ever crime.
Even in the 1950s your country England slaughtered about 200,000 innocent Kenyan men, women and children in concentration camps. And you initiated an unjust war, together with France, against Egypt. China’s record on human rights, by no means perfect, is far better than the bloody history of the West.
The real issue you have Stuart, along with many other whites, is you just cannot stomach the rise of the first great non-white power in living history. Your fear is a racial fear. Admit it.
April 24th, 2008 at 9:48 am
OK, Mongol Warrior, let’s break it down:
Stuart, you are just a typical smarmy asiaphile, lecturing us Chinese on how to behave.
I welcome the marginalised, the dispossessed, and the irrational to comment here – but go easy on the insults, MW. Besides, nothing in your opening statement bears any resemblance to the person I am.
Imagine if Chinese demanded that … all whites get out of Australia and New Zealand. You would be getting Chinese in those respective placed being lynched in the streets.
Wrong. Unlike foreigners in China, Chinese have the right to protest in their adopted countries. And they have the protection of a strong sense of the rule of law.
Even if there was a sniff of China interfering in the domestic affairs of any Western nation, the outrage would be about one-hundred fold that of the very well justified Chinese reaction to Western media bias.
China most certainly does interfere in the affairs of other countries.
As for the media bias storm, it would be altogether more in keeping with advanced thinking to react with indignation to the output from CCTV and China Daily.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:34 am
Analysis: part 2
Stuart, you as a member of the most violent, aggressive race in all of human history ie the Anglo Saxon race, should just shut the hell up and stop lecturing Chinese.
There you go again. No lecturing here; just opinion and a more reflective, balanced view of current sino-issues than you are comfortable with.
Chinese civilization is probably the most peaceable and non-warlike in all of human history.
Now really!! I assume that was an attempt at humour.
Just because Chinese oppression, slavery, slaughter, and war mongering have been (for the most part) confined to its present territory, doesn’t make modern or ancient China a ‘peaceful’ nation.
China was in contact with Africa well before the Europeans. But just compare the records of China vs Europe. China traded with Africans, gave Africans GIFTS as evidence of the glory of China. Europeans enslaved Africans by the tens of millions in history’s greatest ever crime.
The ‘Africa exhibit’ in the Museum of Anthropology at Xiamen University proudly states that China enslaved Africans long before Europeans. I know China likes to be ‘first’ but I don’t think that is anything to be proud of.
Past European colonial behaviour cannot be used to condone current or future policies. The world looks to China to do better as a global power, not follow the example of the former imperialist nations.
…greatest ever crime
I think Mao has a good shot at that accolade.
Even in the 1950s your country England slaughtered about 200,000 innocent Kenyan men, women and children in concentration camps.
I’d be interested if you could back that up. In the meantime, I assure you that Mao was responsible for the deaths of 20 times that number in the 1950′s – beat that!
China’s record on human rights, by no means perfect, is far better than the bloody history of the West.
No. China’s history of human rights abuses is just as lamentable as that of other countries. The difference is other countries are not so good at, or inclined to, sweep such facts under the carpet.
Back in the present, China’s human rights record lags far behind its global influence. That is not acceptable.
The real issue you have Stuart, along with many other whites, is you just cannot stomach the rise of the first great non-white power in living history. Your fear is a racial fear. Admit it.
It is not possible for me to admit that which isn’t true.
What is true, I believe, is that the Chinese government have cultivated the idea that the ‘west’ is trying to stop China from becoming a powerful country.
That has tapped into the ‘chip-on-shoulder’ mentality that is harboured by so many Chinese concerning past encounters with foreign countries. This has been all too evident in the irrational ranting and behaviour of many Chinese citizens in recent weeks.
If you really want China to be a ‘great’ nation that is tolerant and peaceful, the Chinese themselves must make it real. Self-proclamation is meaningless.
April 24th, 2008 at 10:36 am
Stuart, every country has something that they consider sacred. Go to Thailand and insult their King and you will be knocked on the head. If you go to America and say September 11 was just desserts, you have a good chance of being violently attacked. Go to New Zealand and Australia and insult the memory of the Anzacs – and I am sure violence will be coming your way. Of course the law will step in – but so will Chinese police attack foreigners from attack by Chinese. The massive media and governmental abuse of China over the issue of Tibet is an insult to the entire Chinese nation. Untold millions laid down their lives to unite China and regain real sovereignty. To advocate for China’s breakup takes us back to the days of the Opium War and extraterritoriality. So of course Chinese are angry. What is surprising is that there has been virtually nil violence. Even the attack mentioned in the article was not a severe one. Chinese have been attacked in America and killed for just looking like Japanese – with the killers getting off virtually scott-free (case of Vincent Chin). Racial hate crimes are virtually unknown in China, in the West they are quite common.
How does China interfere in the domestic affairs of other nations in a way that the West does not? Please provide examples.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:59 am
“The massive media and governmental abuse of China over the issue of Tibet is an insult to the entire Chinese nation.”
The massive media and governmental abuse you speak of is a myth, MW. And despite the usual rhetoric, ‘all’ Chinese people do not think and speak as one.
April 24th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Stuart, the fact is Chinese civilization has more than any other nation been the victim of aggression. In the past we absorbed racially similar invaders, such as the Mongolians and the Manchus. The Europeans and Japanese however never wanted to be assimilated and in the case of Europeans, assimilation would have been harder. You admit as much that China’s bloodletting has mostly been confined to its own borders. But all nations have gone through internal bloodlettings – China no more than others (although in absolute numbers maybe simply through the sheer size of the population).
As for African slavery your slippery evasions are just pathetic. That a few Chinese may have bough an African slave here or there off some Arab trader simply does not compare with the sheer magnitude and purpose of the trans-Atlantic Slave trade, a trade that perhaps took the lives of at least 10 million Africans. And I’m sure that the Romans used African slaves long before the Chinese.
As for British colonial atrocities in Kenya refer “Britain’s Gulag: the brutal end of empire in Kenya” by Caroline Elkins.
Mao’s victims in terms of executions were about 3 or 4 million. Many of these happened in the early fifties as the revolution was being consolidated. Many were undoubtedly KMT agents, officials, and local brigands guilty of horrendous crimes. Of course there were those who were victims of lynch mob justice as well. But as a percentage of the population, such a toll is not excessive for a revolution as earth shattering as that of the Chinese revolution. Of course Jung Chang also claims 27 million in labor camps – a number borrowed from US propagandists – the way they arrived at this number is so absurd that only those with an anti-China agenda would find them believable. Of course there is the GLF and Cultural Revolution. The GLF caused perhaps 20million deaths – but this was the result of good intentions. Not much good came of the Cultural Revolution of course – but most of the deaths here were from inter-factional fighting.
But in the end Mao raised China’s life expectancy from 35 to 69 during his 27 years in power. His contributions far outweigh his faults.
Whereas the deaths caused by imperialism were by direct exploitation of Asians and Africans.
Why don’t you, Stuart, educate yourself on real man-made famines by your countrymen that killed up to 50 million at the end of 19th Century; http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/twe300c.htm
You say that China’s atrocities are swept under the carpet. Tell me this Stuart; how many whites know about the Opium War, the rape of Africa, the massacre of Hereros, the genocide of the Congolese?
And how is China not a tolerant and peaceful nation. We have few disputes with any other nations in the world. We have the occassional contretemps with the West – but this is almost entirely the fault of the West. The recent Tibet disturbances are entirely internal police actions. The West has no more right to interfere than China would have had to pass comment and judgement on what happened to the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas. Furthermore Tibet’s status as part of China is not disputed by any country in the entire world. In fact the US recognized Tibet as part of China in 1942. So just you keep the fuck out of China’s affairs as you would expect China to not lecture you on the internal affairs of the West.
April 24th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Mongol Warrior,
I’m educated as well. But it’s really not a good defense to say since you’ve done wrong we are entitled to do the same.
There is no doubt that we need to apologize to the attacked American who was merely shopping. But at the same time, it’s also unfair to say since some guy attacked innocents, the protests are only about attacking foreigners. Apart from that, I’m curious to know why the American chose to shop in that particular place, at that particular time, since everyone should know it’s not the best choice. Yes, he/she has the right but my conclusion is he/she is neither informative nor smart.
April 25th, 2008 at 1:50 am
Linan Wang, I would never try and justify random attacks on anyone. All I am trying to say is that this type of attack is extremely rare in China, and if the roles were reversed, and China and Chinese were abusing a Western nation in the same way the West has been abusing China over Tibet, Westerners would also react violently towards Chinese – but more frequently and in a more extreme fashion.
There is a cultural difference here, Chinese being largely a passive and non-violent people, whereas Westerners, Americans especially glorify violence and aggression and ‘kicking someone’s ass.’
April 27th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Yeah, Mongol Warrior, that’s the spirit–just generalize every American as though they are all cowboys threatening to ‘kick someone’s ass.’
I’m an American and I haven’t threatened anyone, ever. Now that we’ve proven you have the tendency to embellish, perhaps you’d like to revisit some of your previous posts.
April 27th, 2008 at 11:11 am
“There is a cultural difference here, Chinese being largely a passive and non-violent people” – MW
I really wanted to laugh when I read that, but there isn’t much in China’s modern or ancient history that hasn’t been punctuated with violent struggle – and that’s not funny!
April 27th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Stuart,
Everything is relative. There are precious few lands which were not invaded by the English in the past. There are precious few lands today that are immune from a good “ass-kicking” from Uncle Sam if they step out of line.
China by contrast, does not occupy anyone elses land, has very rarely in its history invaded other countries, and when it came into contact with Africans, decided to trade rather than enslave them. Utter contrast with what whites did.
Answer me this Stuart; where do you and Englishmen in general get the moral authority to pontificate upon the internal affairs of other people?
April 28th, 2008 at 5:35 am
MW – I really get tired of reading the questions and counter-criticisms that base themselves on an association between an individual (non-Chinese, more especially) and the actions of their country’s forbears.
I’m accountable for my own conduct on this planet, not for those that came before me; nor am I connected with, or responsible for, the actions of others in the UK or the west in general.
Human rights issues are everyone’s concern – I don’t need any more moral authority than that. The sooner you reject the notions of ‘internal affairs’ and dispense with sweeping generalisations the better.
Moreover, your assertion that China doesn’t occupy anyone else’s land is debatable – especially to some of its neighbours.
And don’t start on Africa unless you can restrict the discussion to current events. I never enslaved anyone; get used to the idea.
April 28th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
I’m accountable for my own conduct on this planet, not for those that came before me; nor am I connected with, or responsible for, the actions of others in the UK or the west in general.
The fact is Stuart you are connected. There is a reason why you have been born into a society which is about 500 times more wealthy than most African and Asian countries. You may not be criminally responsible for the evil actions of your forbears, but as a direct beneficiary of the proceeds of crime you have a moral duty to advocate for a more fair deal for the Third World, of which China is unashamedly a member.
And in fact it would not be morally or legally incorrect for China to ask for reparations from your country for the depredations of the Opium War.
Reparations are not holding people today criminally responsible for the crimes of their ancestors. It is just claiming against the ‘family’ estate.
Stuart, instead of constantly bashing China, a developing country which more than any other is improving the lives of its citizens at a rate unprecedented in all of human history, why don’t you do something useful and work towards eliminating Third World poverty? In this area at least China is a gold medallist.
April 29th, 2008 at 5:10 am
“Stuart, instead of constantly bashing China…”
I absolutely don’t do that; it’s a misperception on your (and so many others’) part. So much has been left unsaid and unreported for so long in China that it is easier for people to label a foreigner as a ‘China basher’ than to consider his/her remarks objectively.
China is not a member of the Third World, despite the need for much more development in some areas. It should also be pointed out that China has a huge sum of money at its disposal right now, accumulated through preferential trade conditions.
It would be nice if the Chinese government spent more of that money improving the lives of the very people that earned it for them.
April 29th, 2008 at 7:00 am
“It would be nice if the Chinese government spent more of that money improving the lives of the very people that earned it for them.’
I agree with you on this point. Yes, much money goes to the government, especially some officials. For example, our company can earn billions of Yuan each year, but some of these money are used to bribe the local officials, some are used to pay for all kinds of tax. If we don’t birbe the local officials, they wouldn’t work for us , then our products wouldn’t be sold without soem documents issued by these local officials.
April 29th, 2008 at 9:29 am
There is serious corruption in China. What they need is to show no mercy to corrupt scum. All should be dealt with in exactly the same was as that cockroach Zheng Xiaoyu.
In fact party members should be treated much more harshly than the average citizen.
Of course Amnesty and the like will scream blue murder that you can’t kill for corruption. Ridiculous. A corrupt official deserves death 100 times more than a common crook.
The problem is Chinese culture too. Too many Chinese are selfish, and do not think beyond what will benefit their own family. The West benefits from the universalistic Christian faith and its secular residue – liberalism. Thus Westerners generally have a much higher degree of public spiritedness than Chinese.
That is why communist ideals are good. Communism is the unwanted bastard child of Christianity – without the God. What China needs more of is a return to true communist ideals; to serve the people.