Speaking of flags …
Posted by stuart on Apr 22nd, 2008
2008
Apr 22
This is how insensitivity and short-sighted ignorance can make a mountain out of a molehill. In response to the torch protests in Paris and the boss of Carrefour holding a different view of the Dalai Lama than the Motherland, Chinese anger has led to the French tricolour being adorned with swastikas.
As commenters at Zhongnanhai and Peking Duck point out, it is not hard to imagine China’s response to their flag being covered with the symbol of their WW2 occupiers.
I’m neither French nor Chinese, but this action is far more worthy of an apology than the disruptions of a few protesters in Paris. I suspect France will be waiting for a long time.
April 22nd, 2008 at 11:52 am
It seems now it’s your turn to explain a flag has more than its original meaning.
It’s a modern version of Pride And Prejudice. Both sides see each other from pre-defined perspectives, believes only what they’ve heard and interpreted with their own logic.
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Linan,
I never denied that flags have meanings deeper than their originally intended representation.
This is a different situation altogether. It is directly comparable to drawing a symbol of Japanese occupation or atrocity on the Chinese flag. Consider how that would play in the Chinese media!
April 22nd, 2008 at 12:41 pm
Stuart,
Frankly speaking I don’t understand why it’s a different situation.
In Paris, French guys waved Tibetan flag and it did touch the sensitive part of Chinese: unification.
In China, protesters drew Nazi symbols on French national flag. It reached the French bottom line.
From my view, it’s simple. French challenged our fundamental belief and it’s a reasonable exchange to return something they may not be happy with, although quite childish.
My point is simple and may sound like CCP’s propaganda: the unification of China is the bottom line. It’s perfectly acceptable to promoting human right, free speech, even against CCP. But as long as Free Tibet movement is essentially about Tibet independence, to wave Tibetan Flag is the same thing to draw Japanese atrocity on Chinese flag.
(I read Dalai lama’s biography recently, and in his eyes China should be segmented to 5 parts)
April 22nd, 2008 at 5:05 pm
France will wait for a long time for sure.
I think it is time someone make up a PRC flag with the stars replaced with a shining sun with rays as retaliation. May be some drops of blood would be good too. But the whole PRC is blood red already, making the drops of blood to stand out would be challenging. Graphic artists, face your challenge.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:21 am
Bill,
I don’t see your point except the attack on our national flag and our history, if “PRC” in your reply refers to Chinese gov. and Chinese people.
If you were the westerner who believes logic and against nationalism, you could’ve done better to clarify why French folks were doing right and Chinese are going to the wrong direction. Instead, you adopt the methodology used by Chinese Fenqing, demonizing without concrete argument.
The reason why I subscribe this particular blog is it contains more than emotional expressing. The reason why I bother writing in my second language is I want to communicate in a rational basis. The Chinese Fenqing’s behaviors are not excuses for anyone to do the same thing, especially if you think they’ve done wrong.
Stuart, i’m looking forward your comments, since you are the host and you have ultimate judgement within your kingdom.
April 23rd, 2008 at 11:29 am
Linan - your presence here is most welcome, more so because we don’t agree on everything.
I want my visitors (many of them Chinese) to read a viewpoint different to their own, just as I want them to express their own opinions so that I might see an issue from another angle.
As for being the ‘ultimate judge’ within my own kingdom, I’ll only exercise my right to block spam and delete personal attacks or offensive remarks.
In response to your reading of the Dalai Lama’s biography, I’m sure his ideas have changed with regard to cutting up China into five pieces. This has not been his stated position of late, which only seeks greater autonomy for Tibet within a greater China.
April 23rd, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Linan,
Pertaining to your last comment in response to Bill–
While you rightly suggest that we use argument as a defense rather than anger, you use the same form of “childish anger” in defending what these nationalists have done to the French flag in defense of those protesting the support of the Tibet cause in Paris!!
You are quoted, “In China, protesters drew Nazi symbols on French national flag. It reached the French bottom line.
From my view, it’s simple. French challenged our fundamental belief and it’s a reasonable exchange to return something they may not be happy with, although quite childish.”
Just because you called it “childish” doesn’t forgive that you are justifying what they’ve done! I suppose I can take a piss in Tiananmen Square in protest, and though it is childish, it reaches the Chinese bottome line (aka, it “rightly” insults them).
Let me just say this: When people in the world protest something, they are not PERSONALLY attacking you! Why do people here always react as though they’ve personally been beaten with a stick? As your status in the world continues to rise, you will face more and more scrutiny and you will hear more and more garbage spoken about your country. Get used to it.
As an American living overseas, I’m used to being insulted daily from people from EVERY conceivable country. 99.99% of the insults and/or negative comments about the U.S. comes from other western people!! The reason? Simply because America is unpopular and has been immature in its global political game, we are a hated bunch. I don’t even support Bush and his cronies, but I still have to live with the insults, the bitterness, the jealousy, hate, etc.
My point is, China’s a big boy now and needs to learn to live with the scrutiny that comes along with it. The people in Paris, London, SF, India, etc. were merely expressing their support of what THEY believe is right and just.
April 24th, 2008 at 11:39 am
Mike,
Thank you for the criticism, but not 100% agree. In my first comment on this blog article, I tried to explain the rationale behind the “nationalism” protests. In my view, the protests were not totally irrational and it’s unfair just use labels like “nationalism”, “manipulated” without attempts to dig out the meaning behind. It’s merely prejudice to easily use these labels to Chinese Fenqing. I don’t think I merely express my childish anger since I defended for the “childish anger”.
About protests and personal attacking, your views are inconsistent. The first paragraph on this topic notices me that protests are not personal attacks, while the later one states your feeling about being insulted.
Anyway, you brought up an interesting topic. Frankly speaking it’s one thing I don’t understand. Why do folks bother protesting merely for expressing? Protests, in my view, are warnings with hidden words: “if you did not response to our feeling, we are going to take serious actions”. There is a clear roadmap: protests, strikes, riots, and organised violence.
And it’s always personal. Let’s be honest. Like the riots in Lhasa, it ended up with killing of real Han and Hui Chinese. And Jing Jing, who was attacked in Paris. And, French new paper used the title: “slap on face”.
About your last point, I want to know the meaning behind the words:” big boy”. Does it suggest someone is the father of the “international family”?
April 27th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Hi, Linan Wang, sorry for the late reply
Okay, for the purpose of organization, I’ll respond to your comments as I read and subsequently considered them and try to put it all together in the end.
You said: “In my view, the protests were not totally irrational and it’s unfair just use labels like “nationalism”, “manipulated” without attempts to dig out the meaning behind”
I don’t know which protests you are referring to here, the protests in Paris or the retaliatory protests in China. But, in the end, if one protest is “not totally irrational,” then the other isn’t irrational either. Both are sacred rights we have a responsibility to use to convey a meaning of support or outrage about a situation. The manner in which we protest, however, is what we are addressing. In my estimation, we are digging out the meaning behind words such as “nationalism by having this discussion and by following Stuart’s blog.”
You said: “The first paragraph on this topic notices me that protests are not personal attacks, while the later one states your feeling about being insulted.”
Who said I felt insulted? I said I live with insults that come at me from every direction–but, I don’t take it personally and I especially don’t address those who insult the U.S. by insulting them back. Retaliation IS child’s play. The last time I did that was on the playground when I was five. As I stated, I understand the reasons for their insults to the U.S. (”because America is unpopular and has been immature in its global political game, we are a hated bunch. I don’t even support Bush and his cronies”), and I live with it.
You said: “Why do folks bother protesting merely for expressing?”
Well, because it is called the voice of the people and it must be heard. People in authority NEED to know and SHOULD know where the people stand on issues.
I guess we just disagree on whether it is personal or not, but as long as I’m not making the decisions in a political office, I just do my duty as a citizen, a father and a husband. That’s the only thing I take personally. Being a citizen of a country doesn’t mean that I have an obligation to fall in line with its official principles and policies. This is where the meaning of nationalism can be discussed. In my eyes, nationalism is just like patriotism, the love of one’s country, but that comes with a catch–a true nationalist or patriot will stand up TO his government (when it is making mistakes) as much as he will stand up FOR his government(in times of need).
Feelings that are grounded in the idea of defending the government or ruling institution just because you are told to do so or because you feel obligated is not nationalism–that’s servitude.
Finally, you want to know what I meant by “big boy?” For this purpose it means that China has grown up–It means that China isn’t a child that needs someone to hold its hand and tell it what to do. It can stand on its own feet and change the world with a single decision. More important for this discussion, because China is a “big boy” now, why get so offended by protests 8000 km away that have no bearing on the decision making process within your country that you mirror those with protests of your own? That’s retaliation and that’s for playgrounds, not politics.
April 27th, 2008 at 11:16 am
Mike and Linan - thanks during my weekend without a computer.
April 28th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Mike,
I agree with most of your comments. There is only one thing I want to remind you. According to BBC, there are over 84,000 protests ongoing in China each year. If the report is reliable, it means we are not people have only stand up for the government. As an oversea Chinese, I feel that this government is my ugly baby, it’s ok for me to criticize and make jokes, but it’s still my baby.
@stuart, thank you for the hosting of the party, although we were so busy in arguing and forgot to show more respects.