http://www.straitstimes.com/
From the BBC comes this report. This kind of ‘allegiance to the Motherland’ has been going on for years in China and is the fertile breeding ground of the next generation of fenqing. It’s also dangerously close to the cultivation of a mindset that denounces those that are not fervent enough in their expressions of love for all things CCP China.
Imagine the shame of having a child accused of not loving China above all else. Re-ducation would be the only answer.
Sound familiar?
September 2nd, 2009 at 4:07 am
Don’t American kids pay allegiance to their flag every day?
And please, not everyone coming out of the Chinese system has turned out to be a fenqing. I don’t think I am one, though I take great pleasure in seeing them annoying the hell out of people of stuart’s ilk.
September 2nd, 2009 at 7:05 pm
Hao jiu bu jian, pffefer.
They don’t annoy me, but they are a bit worrying as unwitting pawns in Chinese plans for world domination.
September 3rd, 2009 at 5:40 am
Pffefer,
I am an American and the last time I remember paying allegiance in a classroom was the second grade.
The kids today have no recollection of it because it hasn’t been done for many years. Please ask or research before you say something like this.
September 3rd, 2009 at 7:20 am
stuart, you must be on something to think China has plans for “world domination”. If there actually are plans out there I would be very worried. Again, I do appreciate nationalists who may or may not be fenqing taking western cynics head on. I am trying to do my fair share.
September 4th, 2009 at 8:11 am
Mike – thanks for setting pffefer straight (a difficult task)
Pffefer – “stuart, you must be on something ”
I am – it’s called a dose of reality.
September 4th, 2009 at 9:21 am
Mike,
I did ask, kids of someone I know still do it and the oldest one is in 4th grade. Nevertheless the point is Americans and others hardly teach their kids any differently when it comes to emphasizing patriotism.
stuart, just realized that you and many fenqings share something in common: Dreaming about a Chinese domination of the world, albeit taking different positions.
Most Fenqings grow up eventually. Wetsern cynics never will.
September 4th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
“…hardly teach their kids any differently when it comes to emphasizing patriotism.”
But in China it interacts with a lot of hard-wired historical grievances and rote learning of CCP rhetoric. That’s the danger.
“Most Fenqings grow up eventually. Wetsern cynics never will.”
Nationalism is the product of the negatively directed narrow mind, which is not a path readily open to maturity. Used appropriately, cynicism is very healthy for society. China could do with a bit more of the internally directed form.
September 5th, 2009 at 2:36 am
“But in China it interacts with a lot of hard-wired historical grievances and rote learning of CCP rhetoric. That’s the danger.”
I do have problems with getting hung up with “historical grievances” as I think victim mentality is retarded and does China no good; however I don’t have any problem with CCP rhetoric as just I have no problem with American, British or any XXX rhetoric.
“Nationalism is the product of the negatively directed narrow mind, which is not a path readily open to maturity. Used appropriately, cynicism is very healthy for society. China could do with a bit more of the internally directed form.”
Actually many Chinese are quite cynical and critical of themselves, there is no shortage of them in China these days. I do think when facing western cynics who are often hypocritical one must show on mercy.
September 8th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
I tried to leave a comment on this the other day, but it got ‘eaten’. My Net connectivity is bothersomely erratic at the moment, even via the proxies that have generally served me so well until now.
Anyway, to recap….
I found myself agreeing, to a limited degree, with Mr P. I think America is probably the most vigorously – and often, alas, somewhat unselfconsciously, unself-questioningly – patriotic country in the world after China. And I fear that patriotism is to a large extent begotten and reinforced by a propagandizing tendency in school textbooks. I just read a rather good book on this: Lies My Teacher Told Me, by James W. Loewen.
However, I think that kind of process is far worse, far more thoroughgoing in China. And the particular problem with China is that the CCP has managed to achieve an almost complete identification of the nation with the state, of the people with the apparatus that governs them. Hence, it is impossible to express any criticism of the Chinese government without causing offence to the ordinary Chinese citizen. In most other countries – in every other country I can think of – criticism of the government, whether by its own citizens or foreigners, is considered perfectly normal and acceptable; indeed, from citizens, it is honoured as a perfectly appropriate and useful expression of patriotism.
It seems to me that Pffef – not for the first time – is espousing a self-contradictory position. Has he not noticed how much CCP propaganda promotes the victim the mentality?
September 9th, 2009 at 5:31 am
Well, at least in China it is not mandatory for government officials/lawmakers/politicians etc. to wear a Chinese flag lapel pin to show how patriotic they are, in the US they sort of have to.
Call it inferiority complex, call it defensiveness exclusively found in the Chinese, call it whatever you want: the Chinese themselves are (and can be) much more critical of the Chinese government and of themselves than any of you guys. However, many of them are simply not so happy to see such “criticism” coming from foreigners, particularly westerners from born-again western countries who were douche bags not so long ago and all of sudden, again not so longer ago became repenting do-gooders. And often these westerners are highly hypocritical in that they are measuring China with one set of standard yet not holding to their own country to the same standard.
Yes, I am very well aware that CCP propaganda promotes victim mentality and that’s where I have a problem with it. What happened in the past happened and we don’t need to blame anybody any more. However, that is not to say we should allow ourselves to be subject to their often blatant hypocrisy from time to time.
September 9th, 2009 at 10:25 am
Actually, Pffef, I didn’t call it any of those things. I suggested that the extreme sensitivity of the Chinese to criticism of its government was largely the result of propaganda in their education system leaving them with a fused idea of people and government, an inability to differentiate between the two. Any thoughts on that?
You hardly see any public or media criticism of the government here in China. For obvious reasons. But there’s little or no private criticism either on issues where the propaganda works hardest – like “the three Ts”. My topic of the month: “Don’t you think the National Day celebrations are worryingly militaristic? Don’t you think this sends out unfortunate signals to other countries?” Invariable answer: “Oh no. China has to show her strength, to frighten off her enemies.”
Do you think you could possibly take a pledge to try to refrain from using the word ‘hypocrisy’ for a while? Maybe just for a month at first? Baby steps, and all that.
Yes, the US and the UK and many other countries have done some very bad things in their time, and continue to do so; but that doesn’t make them ‘hypocrites’ when they take a stance on human rights or political reform in China. And yes, guys like Stuart and myself who try to engage with you may occasionally be guilty of coming off a bit morally superior, or not being entirely consistent in our arguments – but that doesn’t make us ‘hypocrites’ either. And even if we – and our countries – are ‘hypocrites’ (OK, let’s suppose – let’s just concede the point for once, to see if you’ll drop it), SFW??? Being ‘hypocrites’ does not invalidate any of the points we’re making.
The ‘hypocrisy’ card is your almost invariable resort when you can’t think of anything else to say, and it’s REALLY GODDAMNED TEDIOUS. If you can’t think of anything else to say, don’t say anything.
September 9th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
“I tried to leave a comment on this the other day, but it got ‘eaten’.”
I appreciate the effort, Froog – and the role Mr P has indirectly played in raising some interesting points here (my response later).
I assume I’m still blacklisted, hence your need for a proxy.
September 10th, 2009 at 3:37 am
Honestly Froog, I don’t think it was the Chinese government propaganda that made the Chinese defensive, I personally think being defensive is one of our natural human traits, perhaps more so in the Chinese. Maybe it is a culture thing, but seriously I don’t think it is the Chinese government propaganda that made us this way. Like I said before somewhere, it is OK for me to say my uncle is ugly but for you my neighbor to say the same I might find it unacceptable.
And plus, often such criticism of the government is not well founded and therefore deserves a rebuttal. I see all the time that western critics say “Why are you defending your government?”. The government should be defended when it deserves to be.
I can’t drop the “hypocrite” thingy and you just gave me the perfect reason. I find those of you who are alarmed by China’s National Day celebrations very hypocritical. Why do you think it’s “worryingly militaristic”? China is not the only country that has national day parades goose-stepping soldiers, tanks and air planes. France does it, India does it, Russia does it, bunch of other countries do it. Why not China? I haven’t heard any of you raising any concerns about those countries. If this is not hypocrisy, what is?
September 10th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
I’ve never seen France do it. Or India – but that’s a young and insecure and naive country in many ways. I haven’t seen Russia do it since the end of the Cold War, but maybe it still does.
Any of those countries that do it, they’re STUPID too. Where’s the “hypocrisy” in my saying that?? If every country in the world did it, it would still be stupid. And there’d be another world war within a few years. God forbid. As far as I know, only China is doing it – and it’s very, very, very stupid.
Yep, exaggerated “defensiveness” may be a deeper part of the Chinese culture, but we were talking about that defensiveness as it applies to a knee-jerk defending of the government. You think the Chinese government deserves to be defended over its National Day plans? Over the handling of 6/4? Over the “three Ts”?? Not an easy case to make!
And maybe you need to find a better dictionary for that ‘what is hypocrisy?’ question. The Wikipedia entry might be a good place for you to start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
September 10th, 2009 at 1:52 pm
“However, many of them are simply not so happy to see such “criticism” coming from foreigners”
Well then, it’s about time she grew up. You can’t have a seat at the WTO big boys table and wield a UNSC veto AND expect other member states to refrain from valid criticism just because the CCP dynasty prefers a slice of kowtow with its afternoon tea.
As for the parade, it strikes me as a very childish and retrograde way of showcasing China’s status in the world. Exactly how it demonstrates China’s oft-stated ‘peaceful rise’ isn’t clear either. It seems to me to be more about a sheer exhibition of force than a celebration of 60 years of communist rule.
The bigger question is where and when China’s military will see action. Because, sooner or later, they will (too many potential flashpoints and aggressive territorial claims).
“I personally think being defensive is one of our natural human traits”
Not natural, Pffefer. Learned – via a restrictive, propagandised, and state-prescribed education system and media. Which brings us full circle to the bbc report that kick-started this topic: Chinese schoolchildren’s first lesson being to learn to love China above all else. Related to Froog’s comment on what passes for patriotism in some other countries, loving China and criticising China are viewed as incompatible. How does this raise the level of civilised debate?
Such indoctrination (which I’m quite happy to call it) does nothing to advance accountability or dilute the level of nationalism that exists in China right now. But it does mean that 20 years from now China gets another parade.
September 11th, 2009 at 4:14 am
Frooog,
As far as you know, only China is doing it?? I thought you were pretty well-informed. I guess I was so wrong. Of course France does it! Of course India does it (actually, every single national day, not just every 5 or 10 years, as far as I know)! Of course Russia does it! Of course a bunch of countries do it! Below you will see pictures of military parades that were done this year, in 2009. I see that you guys are up there too, showing off your guns for the queen’s birthday! Hypocrites!
http://bbs.news.163.com/bbs/mil/150934204.html
I completely failed to see why anyone would have a problem with national day celebrations (I bet you and stuart have problems with the lavish fourth of July celebrations, haha you sore losers! You guys lost, get over with it!) and military parades. I failed to see why it is stupid. Are they a show of force? Sure, so what? The fact is most countries in this world have armed forces ready to defend themselves and fight others. Human nature tells me that we humans won’t get continue to have military with us for a long time to come. You want to eliminate military parades, armed forces and wars? Great Froog, welcome to communism!
What’s wrong with China’s national day plans?? What are the three Ts anyway?
September 11th, 2009 at 4:25 am
Oh stuart you are such a hopeless hypocrite. I have not seen you condemning Britain or any other country for holding military parades. Tell me “Oh that damn Britain!” first before pointing fingers at China.
When will China’s military see action? You British hypocrite, while your military is fighting thousands of miles away from country you are concerned about Chinese military seeing action somewhere? I am starting to wonder, is hypocrisy something fundamentally alien to you self-righteous, morally-superior westerners or what? Do they not teach you what it means? Do they always teach you “do as I say but not as I do”?
Says who China teaches her schoolchildren to love China above all else? The friggin’ BBC? China does teach her schoolchildren to love China, however she never taught them to love China above everything else. Come on, there is no “China uber alles” here. I do believe that being able to criticize is the responsibility of a true patriot. Anyone who blindly follows and condones everything the government does is not a true patriot as the government might lead the country to trouble.
Sure you guys can criticize all you want, China should just take a page from the US’ play book and ignore you people for the most part. Getting more thick-skinned is the way to go!
September 11th, 2009 at 10:01 am
Yawn.
Still hasn’t learned meaning of word ‘hypocrite’.
In most civilized and grown-up countries there are occasional military ‘shows’ – where people can go and see the latest military hardware being demonstrated on a military base somewhere. Most countries also have occasional military parades, based around marching foot soldiers and bands. In the UK we put them in their prettiest uniforms and have them use 100-year-old weapons, because it keeps the tourists amused. And also because, that way, nobody thinks we’re actually planning go to war any time soon. Gun salutes for the royal family and visiting heads of state in the UK are a quaint old hangover of our Imperial past which I could happily do without, but it’s a meaningless bit of ritual – it’s not meant to, and doesn’t conveny any message of threat or demonstration of power to other countries.
Having hundreds of tanks and missile-launchers process through the centre of your capital city on the other hand – rather a different kettle of fish. And it will presumably necessitate laying new road surfaces throughout much of central Beijing afterwards.
September 11th, 2009 at 10:59 am
Er… another little glitch with my follow-up comment here. Didn’t appear, but attempts to resend blocked as ‘duplicate’. Neither fish nor fowl!
I had tried to add:
And there is – unfortunately – very much a China uber alles mentality. The Chinese government wants to believe – and most of the Chinese people seem to wholeheartedly buy into the dream – that China is somehow morally/culturally already the leading country in the world, and that it therefore deserves to be also the most powerful and influential country in terms of economic and military power and diplomatic influence. All Chinese policy is directed towards achieving this, and they have timelines and milestones for doing so.
If you want to understand what ‘hypocrisy’ really means – pretending to a moral superiority that you do not in fact possess – consider China’s protestations of being devoted to a ‘peaceful rise’.
September 11th, 2009 at 1:01 pm
“Getting more thick-skinned is the way to go”
It certainly wouldn’t do you any harm!
“Anyone who blindly follows and condones everything the government does is not a true patriot as the government might lead the country to trouble.”
They’re not; and they will. The parade is probably just the beginning.
“showing off your guns for the queen’s birthday”
Don’t be naive, Pffefer. China’s upcoming presentation of arms is going to be qualitatively and quantitatively different: trooping the colour in the UK is all about the brass band and a few horses.
September 11th, 2009 at 1:06 pm
Froog, your duplicate comments got caught up in my spam filter for some reason. Seems the glitch is at this end!
September 11th, 2009 at 4:50 pm
My proxy was probably routing me to you via Belgium. You have to be wary of those unwanted special offers on chocolate.
September 12th, 2009 at 3:43 am
You are a hypocrite and you know it, Froog. “Occasional military parades”? Yes, the last time China had a military parade was 10 years ago, every 10 years or so to me is pretty “occasional”. 100-year-old weapons? Check the picture again, Froog. Those semi-automatic guns carried by your royal guards look quite new to me.
Sure you think the British mean no harm no anyone, just like I think the Chinese mean no harm to anyone. But that doesn’t mean every non-British and non-Chinese out there feels the same, right?
September 12th, 2009 at 3:51 am
Speak for yourself, Froog. You are a foreign citizen and you don’t speak for the Chinese government or the Chinese people. I don’t speak for them either however I don’t think they believe China is culturally and morally leading the world, that’s actually what you obnoxiously self-righteous and assertive westerners tend to believe (that you have the moral authority to lead the world and judge everyone). The Chinese simply want to be left alone by you western countries who have your dirty hands everywhere, who are so eager to butt in even where you don’t belong.
Froog, what time lines and milestones for China to become “the most powerful and influential country in terms of economic and military power and diplomatic influence”? Care to elaborate? You know something I don’t? You know something Prez Hu doesn’t know?
Froog, you sound just like those paranoid Chinese who think everyone is out there to get China. You think China is out there to get you and everyone else. I am saying to all of you: Grow up!
September 12th, 2009 at 4:01 am
” Don’t be naive, Pffefer. China’s upcoming presentation of arms is going to be qualitatively and quantitatively different: trooping the colour in the UK is all about the brass band and a few horses.”
One could argue you British are a lot smarter than the Chinese: The Chinese (and the Russians) can only parade their troops in some fancy but useless parades while the British are fighting overseas without making any noise. You guys are truly the clever ones.
Seriously stuart and Froog, I wouldn’t worry about China at all. Even though for you guys the sun has set and you are no longer the global empire that you used to be, you are still a pretty powerful country with a very capable armed forces that have global projection capabilities (while China doesn’t). Moreover, you have been befriending the leader of the free world, the land of the free and you are seen as the junior partner of the big, powerful and invincible US of A. The US can defeat anyone if it is determined to do so. You guys will always by its side as the most loyal, faithful sidekick. And together you will find it is a breeze to beat China or anyone. Hail to the Anglo-American friendship!!
September 12th, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Yes, Pffefer, maybe I do know something you don’t. I read the Chinese media nearly every day.
I’ve also worked for Xinhua and the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. And I currently do a lot of editing of academic studies on defence and foreign policy issues. So, I do have something of a direct line to some of the higher level Party thinking.
Not that this is really any kind of secret. The “innate cultural superiority of China” idea is endemic. And the roadmap for becoming No. 1 nation (by about 2050, if I recall correctly) is also pretty openly discussed. And have you noticed the little whoop of triumph in the domestic media every time China surpasses another country in its announced GDP figures (or figures for Internet usage, or number of mobile phones, home computers, TVs, whatever)? It’s all about being No. 1.
Now, I don’t have anything against that, per se. There are always shifts in the global balance of power – new leading countries emerge as older ones falter. It’s just that it seems to me to be rather shallow and naive, and possibly dangerous (to oneself more than anyone else), to be so preoccupied with status at the expense of anything else. And I just don’t think China is anywhere near mature enough yet – either in its material or its moral infrastructure – to bear that burden of world leadership. And I don’t think it ever will be while it is still led by the CCP in its present form.
September 12th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
The perception – amongst the Chinese themselves – of the massive display of military hardware (unparalleled anywhere in the world since the end of the Cold War, I think – if you think you have pictures of the Indians doing something similar, Pffef, I would be interested to see them) planned for October 1st is that it is i>necessary and justified, to intimidate China’s enemies.
Yep, they don’t even say “potential enemies” there, just “enemies”. When challenged as to who those enemies might be, they start off with the US and the UK (which seems to be more about lingering resentments of the “century of humiliation”, and envy of global hegemony rather than any, you know, realistic military threat). When you point out that the US and the UK have neither the desire nor capability to fight a land war against China, they reconsider for a moment, and then suggest India, Russia, and Japan. Actual neighbours. That’s a lot more worrying. But when you press them a little further, and ask, “Come on, really, who might you ever use these weapons against? Who are you actually trying to intimidate?” Why, then they say: Xinjiang, Tibet, and Taiwan.
It’s not just swaggering militarism. It’s preparation for civil war.
That’s why I feel so uncomfortable with it.
And it makes a mess of the tarmac.
September 12th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Don’t pretend that you care about China. Return collections of all the ancient Chinese antiques displayed in the British Museum which your old British robbers stole in the Opium War. British are in no position to pinpoint things in China. Yes, we are stronger now, but unlike Britain, we will not invade others and rob others.
September 12th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
“Return collections of all the ancient Chinese antiques displayed in the British Museum which your old British robbers stole in the Opium War.”
Not all were stolen, and they’ve been cared for rather better than the Chinese have managed their own antiquity. You’ll get them back when the bleating and the demands stop. In the meantime I refer you to froog’s comment regarding lingering resentment. Get over them.
“Yes, we are stronger now, but unlike Britain, we will not invade others and rob others.”
China’s already doing it. In particular I urge you to take a close look at Africa for countless examples of ‘soft power’ neo-colonialism. The hard power stuff comes some time after the parade finishes.
September 13th, 2009 at 4:05 am
Geez froog, who do you think you are? You have access to high level party thinking? hahaha, the joke of the day! You were merely a foreign staffer working for Xinhua and the CASS, so what? By your logic everyone who knows for Xinhua and the CASS would have “a direct line to some of the higher level Party thinking”? How old are you, seriously? And you are saying the Chinese aren’t mature enough (which I agree)? Coming from you?? If this is not hypocrisy and slapping your own face, what is?
Froog, if you’ve got some guts and a shred of intelligence, show us evidence and traces of the Chinese “openly discussing” about being No.1 in 2050. Both in Chinese and English. Will you? Don’t run away like a girl! Last time I checked the Chinese government talked about becoming a “moderately developed country” (as opposed to highly developed countries like the US and Japan) by 2080. 2080 my hypocritical British friend!
Sure, some, if not many Chinese are guilty of boasting and dreaming (unrealistically) about being No.1. I think they will be in for a rude awakening. The US will remain being No.1 for the next century to come. The US is ahead of China by leaps and bounds. Luckily I am not alone and there are many of us out there knowing that what China needs to do is to ignore all the noise from you people and keeps chugging along, dealing with her many problems.
September 13th, 2009 at 4:11 am
Do you have no shame, Froog? Who the hell are you to say what the Chinese are saying? Says who “The perception – amongst the Chinese themselves – of the massive display of military hardware planned for October 1st is that it is necessary and justified, to intimidate China’s enemies.”? You? But who are you? Who the hell are you anyway? Are you the spokeperson for Zhongnanhai or what?
Stop making up stuff. Who gives a rat’s ass about the UK these days anyway? If the UK hadn’t been America’s No.1 bitch, nobody would have paid any attention to the UK. Even though you are still are pretty powerful country who is capable of causing some harm, but honestly most Chinese I know couldn’t care less about the UK.
I thank you though for implying that a war between mainland China (the PRC) and Taiwan province (the ROC) is a Chinese civil war. Don’t worry, it will never happen. Chinese don’t fight Chinese anymore, I hope.
September 13th, 2009 at 4:20 am
“China’s already doing it. In particular I urge you to take a close look at Africa for countless examples of ’soft power’ neo-colonialism. The hard power stuff comes some time after the parade finishes.”
stuart, you and Froog are doing the UK a disservice by both being so shameless. Are most British like you two, ignorant, assertive, disgustingly self-righteous and always talking out of your ass?
Find out what “neo-colonialism” is first. China is paying with hard earned cash for what it wants from Africa, South America and elsewhere while you people held those people at gun point and robbed them of the stuff that you wanted without paying a penny. And you have the balls to accuse the Chinese of engaging in colonialism? @#$%, there is still something called the british commonwealth games out there, isn’t it? You people still have overseas colonies that are far away from the british isles, don’t you? A british national to accuse the Chinese of engaging in colonialism? Thank you for slapping yourself in the face! I really appreciate your consistent effort to demonstrate what a bunch of idiots you people are. The Chinese government should be paying you guys as you are doing a much better and more effective job than those school mandarins whose “patriotic education” is as fun as watching paint dry. The Chinese are more nationalistic thank to you people.
September 13th, 2009 at 4:48 am
This is for you, Froog. Don’t pretend you speak for the Chinese. Speak for yourself!
http://www.china-week.com/html/5292.htm
September 13th, 2009 at 10:18 am
???? Yeah, obviously Chinese media reports give you the straight dope on what the man-on-the-street thinks.
If you actually live in China and talk to Chinese people, what you hear is what I said. People here are mostly happy with the “showing off” because they feel China needs to strike a tough pose towards its “enemies” (I would say “rivals”, but they are currently saying “enemies”).
You think your English is very good, don’t you, Pffef – but you completely fail to get nuances of register, humour, irony, self-deprecation. There’s really not much point trying to have a conversation with you. I could write a HUGE post about the stuff you have apparently not understood in my previous few comments, but it’s just not worth the effort.
I wonder if you didn’t just get embarrassed leaving a dozen different rants under the same name, and decide to pose as ‘oldsummerpalace’ for a bit of variety.
I don’t have the time to do your online research for you. Most of the stuff I was thinking of really is “classified” (no, don’t laugh – I can, but you shouldn’t) when I see; it subsequently gets published, but not widely distributed, and probably doesn’t make it on to the Internet. Similar references in the media, though, are relatively common, I think. So common that it would be enormously tedious to wade through them all trying to find an especially apposite one.
I often wonder if you have time to do your online research. Given the stunning banality and irrelevance of most of the links you produce (and the fact they’re nearly all from Chinese websites) I kind of suspect that there’s just a central list distributed through anti-CNN or something.
Have we given up on ‘militarism’ now (a concept of which you appear to have about as much grasp as ‘hypocrisy’) and moved on to ‘colonialism’ (a concept of which you have as much grasp as….)? What laughs!
Little tip for you, Pffef: ‘neo’ means ‘new-style’ – hence ‘neo-colonialism’ means exploitation of weaker nations overseas through economic coercion rather than direct military intervention (the ‘old school’ way). You might want to check out that word ‘coercion’ as well. And ‘manipulation’, ‘undue influence’, a few related ideas like that – do you have a decent thesaurus to go with your dictionary?
September 13th, 2009 at 11:58 am
Pffefer,
As usual you’ve allowed some observations that you’re not too comfortable with to cloud your judgement in a haze of apoplexy. You need to calm down and respond with a little more class.
I appreciate the entertainment, though.
Btw, you know how a five year old can’t look you in the eye when he denies stealing cookies from the jar? That’s how your response to China’s neo-colonialism sounded.
September 13th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
“I wonder if you didn’t just get embarrassed leaving a dozen different rants under the same name, and decide to pose as ‘oldsummerpalace’ for a bit of variety.”
Haha, pffefer, dude, your English is really good. ????????.
To Stuart and Froog, thanks, but I am not Pffefer, actually I don’t know him as well.
And again thanks Stuart and Froog for paying so much attention to China.
I never read, watch or hear any where from any Chinese media saying China will be the No.1 country by the 2050′s. actually we are saying to be ??????,what it means is moderately developed country. whether Froog,what you interpreted this is another story.
the interesting thing is back to the old days, when China was weak and under developed, when Britain imported opiums to the Chinese people, there was no one cares about Chinese people’s human rights; whereas nowadays, when China became more economically developed, when the people’s living standards much more improved, there suddenly came a group of western human rights fighters, give human rights to the Chinese people, this and that. thats quite interesting.
“Not all were stolen, and they’ve been cared for rather better than the Chinese have managed their own antiquity. You’ll get them back when the bleating and the demands stop. In the meantime I refer you to froog’s comment regarding lingering resentment. Get over them.”
haha, this is really a robber’s logic. I hate to say this, applying your logic: if A fucked B’s wife,whether B’s wife willingly or unwillingly, and afterwards A told B that: listen man, I am better at sex than you are, and i give your wife much more pleasure than you do. think about it, stuart.
September 14th, 2009 at 2:26 am
“…this is really a robber’s logic…”
You’re still harbouring resentments from yesteryear. Let’s move to present day theft.
Care to put a value on the technology and designs stolen by China in the last four decades? More or less than a few pieces of porcelain? Did China take them because she felt entitled?
Besides, I’m no thief, and that analogy of yours was surely the product of too much alcohol (I was going to say ‘opium’ but didn’t want to appear insensitive).
Thanks for dropping in, though.
September 14th, 2009 at 3:27 am
OSP, oh how I wish I or my country could be compared to Mr A in your example. Alas no. But isn’t it what we all aspire to? And is B really going to whinge about it forever, or just find himself a new girl?
That’s the trouble with irrelevant metaphors. They don’t move the discussion on at all, but they do provide endless distracting amusement.
And, er, Chinese rhetoric… emphasises the meaningless. “Moderately” developed?? WTF is that supposed to mean, in any kind of quantifiable terms? China is “moderately developed” NOW. It will be more “moderately developed” in 20 years. It will be even more “moderately developed” in another 20 years after that. What the hell is the significance of that supposed to be??
The 2050 goal (zuoyou) is, I think, for surpassing America in GDP.
And the stuff I’m talking about – which is internal Party policy discussion – is not about the level of China’s economic development (or only very indirectly), it’s about China’s geopolitical status. And it does get out there in the media occasionally, if you take your head out from under your rock.
September 14th, 2009 at 4:07 am
F , i tell you what it means “moderately developed”,one important way to measure it is GDP per capita. China ranks 133 on the list of GDP per capita according to the CIA factbook in 2008. China’s total GDP surpasses Germany last year, but German’s GDP per capita is 15 times of China’s. I don’t know if you guys have ever been to places like Gansu, Qinghai, Ningxia or Guizhou, these places are still really poor, and China is far from being a super power. By 2050, we want our GDP per capita to improve. And there is nothing wrong China improve its people’s living standards.
September 14th, 2009 at 4:41 am
Back to this blog, there is nothing wrong for the patriotic education, and many countries have it as well. Don’t you guys just defend again and again for Britain’s shameful past behaviours(wow, British spelling was indicated a wrong word on the spelling check, maybe next time, no “u” there) ?
September 14th, 2009 at 9:17 am
To Stuart and Froog
I have to say I doubt if any of you have watched the video from that BBC reports! Seriously, all that was there was about LOVE, what is wrong with that?
Appreciate Jet Li, Yang Liwei and so on. These are the men with achievements and great examples for children.
There is nothing wrong to view them as pride of Chinese people and let young children to know that’s what they could possibly become in the future–actor with international recognition, flying to the outer space and so on.
This kind of nationalism, if you insist, is the healthy one. It is not about showing off force, invading other country, but about being proud of ones own identity, celeberate ones own cultural.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:34 am
“And there is nothing wrong China improve its people’s living standards.”
Not per se. But that improvement is likely to come at the expense of others, and the present Chinese regime doesn’t seem to care too much about that.
“Don’t you guys just defend again and again for Britain’s shameful past”
‘Britain’s shameful past’ belongs in the same catalogue as ‘Dalai clique’ and ‘war of resistance against Japanese aggression’, They’re just a collection of sound bite phrases regurgitated ad nauseum without anybody questioning the meaning behind them.
Every country has a ‘shameful past’, but China is one of the worst offenders in not acknowledging its own historical indiscretions.
I’m not sure who you refer to when you say ‘you guys’, but Britain’s colonial legacy (not all ‘shameful’, btw) is most certainly open to debate – but not to confer any sense of guilt (which is China’s strategy) on the present UK population, whose demographics make the idea preposterous.
More countries have plundered, invaded, and bombed Britain than is the case for China; but we’re friends with all of them now and we don’t lobby Denmark or Sweden to give us our women back. We are different people living in different times.
September 14th, 2009 at 11:53 am
A Chinese – thanks for the comment.
I hope you’re right, but I don’t think any form of nationalism is healthy, or good for civilised advancement.
Role models are fine. Teaching kids that they can achieve great things is fine. But why only Chinese role models? Why should kids be taught that their aspirations should meet China’s needs above all others? It’s a not very subtle way of hard-wiring a sense of us against the rest; a sense that China is somehow greater and more entitled than other countries.
Where’s the bit about the moral imperatives in a world of equals that tolerates dissenting opinion and free discussion? Not very likely in a Chinese classroom.
I stand by the post title: China is breeding nationalism.
September 15th, 2009 at 5:01 am
stuart
Can you give me some example of “a sense that China is somehow greater and more entitled than other countries.”
Because there is no way I can get this picture from these program. There are more Hollywood stars better than Jet Li, US and Russia sent their men into space long before China did.
In fact, the message I get, and I believe what they intended to send, is not that “China is somehow greater and more entitled than other countries’, but quite to the contrary, that is, China, despite falling behind, can and is capable of becoming an equal player just like every other developed country.
It is not just Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger that can be great stars, but also Jet Li; It is not just Armstrong and Gagarin that can be the men into the space, but also Yang Liwei.
The starting point here is not that China is better than other countries, but China is right now not as good, yet still have the potential to catch up and is equally capable of doing so.
I heard numerous times from Chinese actors and singers working outside China saying they hope they can show the world that Chinese can be as good and sucessful as everyone else .
The whole message there is simple “Yes We Can”. I do not understand why you are against it.
September 15th, 2009 at 5:37 am
As for that tolerates dissenting opinion and free discussion education. Have you read any Chinese text books?
I ask this because you seems to be unaware that Martin Luther King’s “I have a Dream” and Hendrik Willem van Loon’s “Tolerance” are also in Chinese high school text books. Even in China’s high school political class??????, despite it’s defence for CCP’s rule and collectivism. It also makes clear distinction between party, state and nation. There is lessons on Western political systems and ideas, which I have to say is fairly objective. Further more, when I was there, open debate is allowed and even encouraged.
.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:40 am
Froog,
Clearly you really have no shame. You have’t provided a shred of evidence proving that you were right, you were just basically barking off of your own perception and feelings and yet you made it sound like you know the truth, you know what the Chinese think and how they feel. You think you know stuff others don’t, simply because you were a poor Xinhua staffer and worked for the CASS. Haha, what a pathetic fool. I know folks who worked for People’s Daily, so what? None of them had told me that knew what the Chinese government and the Chinese people wanted because they knew something others don’t!
You don’t want to do the research for me? Ah-ha! ‘Cause you have got nothing to show for, my pathetic British friend!
What’s wrong with stuff from Chinese websites? Funny you, you are the little weasle who claims that you read Chinese media every day. A few more Chinese websites don’t hurt, do they? If you’ve got guts and balls (and I seriously doubt that you do), challenge me on the contents of the stuff that I presented, not where they come from. Did the Chinese forge those photos showing the French, the Brits, the Indians and others parading their troops? And what’s wrong with the guy saying China lags far behind the US?
I never claimed that my English was good. It is not that good, but good enough for me to tell that you are a ignorant, assertive and shameless little guy who talks from his ass.
Stop acting like a little cry baby, Froog. If you want to convince me or anybody that you know something that we don’t and you’ve got stuff, show it. Don’t give me the BS. I don’t have time to waste on you.
September 15th, 2009 at 8:42 am
stuart,
Go back to school and come back and tell me why what the Chinese are doing today are worse than what the British were doing decades ago.
Do you British debate on merits or simply throwing fits like a girl?
September 15th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Froog,
I see that you are becoming more disgusting by the minute. You have been accusing the Chinese of being too over the top and too optimistic in terms of becoming the No.1 in the world, yet you have literally presented NOTHING, NOTHING to prove it. Don’t give me any more of those of your “insider” BS, the fact is you are a nobody and you know nothing and you have nothing mister!
“The 2050 goal (zuoyou) is, I think, for surpassing America in GDP.”
You think? Now you are back-peddling. Weren’t you really sure this is what the Chinese government has set out to be? Once again, for the 100th time, where is the proof? Show me anything in Chinese or English. You’ve got any? NOTHING, as usual.
The ideaof China becoming a moderately-developed country in 2080 actually came out of the CASS. If you were working for them, how the hell did you manage to miss this one? Sleeping on your job and getting paid handsomely by the Chinese, weren’t you? This sort of wide-spread preferential treatment for retarded Laowai in China has to stop!
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-02/19/content_417495.htm
http://news.sina.com.cn/c/2005-02-19/04275139448s.shtml
September 15th, 2009 at 9:04 am
stuart,
Thank you for making a fool out of yourself.
” But that improvement is likely to come at the expense of others, and the present Chinese regime doesn’t seem to care too much about that.”
Raising standard of living in China is at whose expense? Whose standard of living has taken a dive, i.e, is worse than before thanks to the Chinese?
“Every country has a ’shameful past’, but China is one of the worst offenders in not acknowledging its own historical indiscretions.”
What “historical indiscretions”? Sure the Chinese have committed their share of the crimes, but I must say they paled before the British, one of human kind’s worst perpetrators. I’d even argue if it hadn’t been for the Nazis you guys would have remained THE WORST perpetrators of all time. What have you people done to acknowledge and correct your crimes?
“More countries have plundered, invaded, and bombed Britain than is the case for China”
Let’s count: For the poor Brits you had the Romans, the Vikings, the French, the Germans. Who else?
The poor Chinese had the Huns, Di, Jie, Qiang, Xianbei, Tangut, Tubo, Khitans, Jurchens, Mongols, Manchus, the Japanese and a bunch of western savages led by the Brits.
Do they not teach you math in the UK?
September 15th, 2009 at 9:14 am
“But why only Chinese role models? Why should kids be taught that their aspirations should meet China’s needs above all others?”
This is what sheer ignorance and deliberate disinformation do to otherwise intelligent folks like stuart (actually I am not sure whether you are that intelligent in the first place stuart): Growing up I remember there were portraits of many famous scholars, scientists, both Chinese and non-Chinese posting on the walls of hallways and classrooms. Zu Chongzhi was one. Issac Newton was another one. Actually there were more non-Chinese than Chinese “role models”, come to think of it.
And again, says who China teaches her kids “China uber alles”. You two, stuart and Froog, two clueless Laowais who have been in China for a few years have the balls to think that you know China better than the Chinese themselves do; that you know something the Chinese don’t even though you had ZERO, NADA personal experience on these matters. You are telling the Chinese what Chinese (elementary school) classroom is like. How funny. How ironic. Hey stuart, has your English language eliminated the word “SHAME” permanently?
My question to you, Froog and many other assertive, self-righteous and obnoxious westerners all along has been this: What made you people become this disgustingly assertive and self-righteous?
September 15th, 2009 at 11:10 am
Yawn.
I get exasperated with you, Pffefer. You’re a bright guy. You’re better than this. You know a lot of stuff. You just don’t know how to debate.
It’s very tiresome to have you going off all over the place, not paying close attention to what anyone else has said, introducing irrelevant topics, constantly whining about how hard done by China is and how rotten foreigners are, and then – when you’re getting your ass kicked rhetorically (shown up by the other Chinese commenters here, as well as by Stuart) – indulging in personal abuse. GROW UP!
Just a couple of little points here. When I talked of “knowing something you don’t”, I was taking the piss out of you. I do have access to better and higher sources of information than most people; and, more importantly, I’m more curious than most people – I’m always asking questions; but the basic points I was making are common knowledge – you’re just in denial about them.
More self-delusion on the military parades issue. As Stuart has said, the planned Chinese parade is different quantitatively and qualitively from just about anything else going on in the world today. It’s not about troops, you silly little boy, it’s about TANKS. Running huge armoured columns through the middle of your capital city is not something that happens in other countries – certainly not in the UK or the US, anyway. And there is a lot of heavy symbolism in that.
I know that there are some foreign ‘role models’ taught about in Chinese schools – but staggeringly few, it would seem, at least from the evidence of the many hundreds of students and young professionals I’ve taught out here. You hear about Edison and Helen Keller ad nauseam, Einstein and Newton once in a while, Leonardo and Michelangelo very occasionally. And, of course, Norman Bethune. But that’s about it. Chinese kids learn about the Chinese atom bomb programme, for example, but they’ve never heard of Oppenheimer or Fermi. The study of non-Chinese history is extremely limited (and rendered of even less value by the fact that they never learn the correct spelling or pronunciation of any of the proper names!). [And yes, I know, in most other countries there is - or was until recently; I'd hope this is changing now - absolutely ZERO teaching of Chinese history. But that's not relevant to the point we were making here.]
But hey, Pffef, at least you may have scored a point on Stuart with that ‘foreign invaders’ count. Woo-hoo, way to go! I doubt if our blog-host is that concerned. He was making a rather shallow and facetious point there – being historically “right” was probably not his major concern (another question of nuance that you probably missed). Embedded in the joke was the more serious observation that most countries in the world have long histories of hostile relations with their neighbours, but they do not keep harping on this history to the detriment of present day relations – unlike China.
(And I suppose some would say that all those ‘invaders’ of China you mentioned were in fact ‘Chinese’ who just happened to be misguided or ignorant as to their true identity.)
September 15th, 2009 at 11:13 am
Interesting footnote here.
I was blanking on the name of the Chinese scientist lauded as “the father of the atom bomb”, and tried to look it up online.
Wikipedia is mostly open in China at the moment; but a search for “chinese atom bomb” is blocked! So much for the ‘open society’!
September 15th, 2009 at 11:26 am
I would say to A Chinese (although that’s a very clunk screen name, not usefully distinctive) that it’s refreshing to get some calm, intelligent, and relevant remarks from a Chinese visitor to these pages.
I am please to see “pageant of history” and non-military elements being emphasised in the National Day celebrations this year, and I have nothing against that at all. People let Jet Li and Yang Liwei are impressive role models, and embody the sort of image China ought to be seeking to present to the outside world. Tanks and missiles don’t. It’s just the armoured procession I have worries about. (Well, that and the ridiculous ‘security’ measures that are once again suffocating Beijing in the run-up to the parade.)
I’m not able to read textbooks in Chinese, but I do have a lot of indirect exposure to them through having taught in universities here, and through having helped to produce related English-language teaching materials. As I mentioned to Pffefer above, I am grateful that there is some coverage of foreign history – and ideas about foreign systems of government – in Chinese schools (particularly figures like Martin Luther King who was, at least when I was a kid, quite absent from the British high school history syllabus); but my impression is that it’s very, very limited; and – when dealing with politics and society in the West – often very, very biased.
I have been very depressed by my experience of the quality of debate in Chinese schools and universities (although admittedly I’m only talking about debating in English, which is clearly a bit inhibiting): there seems to be only a very narrow range of topics that are commonly the subject of debate, an even narrower range of standard arguments and evidence which are invariably (as if everybody’s working from a single standard playbook – hmm, perhaps they are?), and, as often as not, only one “right answer” at the end of it. It’s debate, Jim, but not as we know it.
September 15th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Another little point in passing for the super-excitable Pffefer…. (if I’m not falling foul of the ‘Belgian spam’ problem again!).
You know what’s interesting about meeting guys who work in the Chinese media, Pffef? Well, if you’re curious enough to actually ask them any questions, that is. They’re usually very bright people. And they have access – to a degree that almost no-one else in the country does – to raw, uncensored news; and also to government policy on the presentation of the news. They know what goes into the news presented to the general public, and why; and they know what is kept out of it, and why. That’s very enlightening.
September 15th, 2009 at 12:55 pm
@ A Chinese
“It is not just Sylvester Stallone and Arnold Schwarzenegger that can be great stars, but also Jet Li”
No no no! In this example, Jet Li has proven Chinese superiority by some considerable margin – which says more (or do I mean less?) about the other two than it does about Li.
“Armstrong and Gagarin that can be the men into the space, but also Yang Liwei.”
I’m not so sure about this one. It seems to have a lot to do with China’s ego.
“…they hope they can show the world that Chinese can be as good and sucessful as everyone else.”
I don’t think any sane person needs convincing of that fact.
But why does China insist on promoting the idea that the rest of the world looks down upon them? It’s all part of a deliberately fostered nationalistic ‘them and us’ psyche, I suspect.
I don’t think you can win the ‘textbook’ argument until they contain and encourage a full and frank discussion of matters relating to Tibet, Xinjiang, Taiwan, the Cultural Revolution, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, India, Japanese relations, Great Leap Forward, Tiananmen, the environment, Chinese foreign policy and her moral obligations as a rising world power, corruption in government, Chinese racism, the need for long-term political change etc etc.
Do they do that and more?
September 15th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
@ pffefer
“Go back to school and come back and tell me why what the Chinese are doing today are worse than what the British were doing decades ago.”
That’s pretty tired and lame. In fact it’s just the sort of response that Kai over at CNReviews or Jeremiah of Granite Studio would call a tu quoque defence. And they’d be right.
“Do you British debate on merits or simply throwing fits like a girl?”
I’m very tolerant of comments on this site, and the way you know that is true is because some of yours don’t get deleted. You know you can produce more intelligent responses (you first came to my attention on the old Richard Spencer Telegraph site) and I urge you to cut out the petty put-downs and stick to the issues.
September 15th, 2009 at 1:37 pm
“Sure the Chinese have committed their share of the crimes, but I must say they paled before the British”
How so? By what measure?
“Whose standard of living has taken a dive, i.e, is worse than before thanks to the Chinese? ”
One example for you. Any idea how many Africans are losing their livelihoods because they are being undercut by the influx of cheap Chinese labour and goods?
“Do they not teach you math in the UK?”
Sure, but your lists were incomplete.
But it’s refreshing to know that the Tubo, Khitans, and Jurchens come in for same Chinese textbook nuance as the Japanese and the Brits.
September 15th, 2009 at 1:57 pm
@ pffefer again
“What made you people become this disgustingly assertive and self-righteous?”
The real question is what influences have given you – and others – the false perception that our attitudes can be described in this way?
It’s a lot like the nauseatingly trite “why do you hate China?” that serves as a response to anything perceived as less than complimentary. And of course by responding (as the framers of the question well knew), one inadvertently lends credibility to the premise of the question.
September 15th, 2009 at 2:02 pm
“Embedded in the joke was the more serious observation that most countries in the world have long histories of hostile relations with their neighbours, but they do not keep harping on this history to the detriment of present day relations”.
I’m glad somebody gets it.
September 15th, 2009 at 2:07 pm
Sorry guys – I’ve just noticed a couple of comments that got caught up in the spam filter (now released) and I’m not sure where they fit into the grand debate. I need a coffee before I go there. Play nice.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
To the author of the blog:
“You’re still harbouring resentments from yesteryear. Let’s move to present day theft. We are different people living in different times.”
Haha, you should tell this to Mahmoud Abbas or Benjamin Netanyahu, then they can probably work out to found a new united federation of Palestine and Israel.
September 15th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
“Sure the Chinese have committed their share of the crimes, but I must say they paled before the British”
How so? By what measure?
To Stuart: Isn’t that obvious?
“Whose standard of living has taken a dive, i.e, is worse than before thanks to the Chinese? ”
One example for you. Any idea how many Africans are losing their livelihoods because they are being undercut by the influx of cheap Chinese labour and goods?
To Stuart: For the African issue, what the hell you Anglo-Saxon suddenly pretend to the fair man to judge on China. Ask this guy, Cecil John Rhodes.
We help many African countries to build infrastructure, we send medical teams etc.
Then what did you do? Colonialism in Africa, slaves trade and the list goes on. Oh I almost forgot, why suddenly Britain pissed off US by releasing the Megrahi to Libya. Is the oil behind it not obvious enough?
September 15th, 2009 at 10:59 pm
“But that’s about it. Chinese kids learn about the Chinese atom bomb programme, for example, but they’ve never heard of Oppenheimer or Fermi.”
To this lad F:
Oh, thanks for reminding me to refresh my old high school memory. As a matter of fact, Chinese kids have heard of Oppenheimer and Fermi. We studied an article written by Chinese American physicist and Nobel laureate Chen-Ning Franklin Yang. In that article, I am sure you can find these two names more than once. If you want to verify the source, just go to any secondary school in China and don’t forget to bring a decent translator!
September 15th, 2009 at 11:11 pm
Sorry, a little off the topic:
To Pffefer and A Chinese :Could you guys add my msn?
todaywhy@hotmail.com
Thanks
September 15th, 2009 at 11:50 pm
“To Pffefer and A Chinese :Could you guys add my msn? ”
What is this? A dating service?
Besides, where’s my invite?
“For the African issue, what the hell you Anglo-Saxon suddenly pretend to the fair man to judge on China.”
You’re falling into the same knee-jerk logical fallacy trap as pffefer.
Anglo Saxon?
September 16th, 2009 at 12:43 am
Some technical problems.
Stuart, we used to talk a few times in the Peony Square in Luoyang in 2005, but anyway, long time so see. I was not sure whether you are still in Luoyang anymore or just moved to Xiamen. but anyway, I was reinforced with an Chinese saying: Zhi Ren Zhi Mian Bu Zhi Xin (One may know a person for a long time without understanding his true nature.)
September 16th, 2009 at 6:30 am
Give me a friggin’ break, Froog. I don’t know how to debate? I introduced irrelevant topics? Haha, how funny, this description fits you the best. All along I have been confronting you with your stupid allegation that the Chinese have plans to become the No.1 in 2050, something like this. I asked you times and times again to present any sort of proof, evidence, anything to back this up and you have given me nothing. You kept resorting to telling me that you “have access to better and higher sources of information than most people”, ha, why should I trust you? Why should anyone trust you? If I were you I would claim that I know Prez Hu personally without presenting anything to prove it. I am the king of England I tell you. Why? How? Because I tell you so!
Common knowledge? The pathetic British friend of mine is back-peddling again. You think it is “common knowledge” so you don’t have to prove it, don’t you? BS. If it were so “common”, how come I don’t know anything about it? How come none of my Chinese friends know about it? We consider ourselves relatively well-informed. I am in denial? Ha, I won’t be in denial if you show me, again, just show me Chinese government plans, agenda etc. that systematically aim at making China the No.1 country in the world by 2050. Well? Of course you have got nothing because you, my pathetic British friend makes things up as he goes!
Your level of stupidity shocks me. You and stuart have got to come up with something better if you want people to take you two seriously. Tanks? You are bothered by the parade of Chinese tanks? hahahhahahaha, you people really amaze me. It is not the missiles, not the fighter jets, it is the tanks. Seriously, what can the Chinese or anyone do with their tanks? Tanks are getting more and more obsolete by the day, they are so “WWII-ish”. Chinese tanks can’t hurt anyone, unless you people want to invade China and of course you ass will be kicked by these tanks. The missiles, the fighter jets etc. are the ones that can deal you people some hard blows. Yet you are bothered by the TANKS. Can you be more stupid, Froog and stuart? Gosh, I am really worried about the UK now. A nation of fools?
And for you people to accuse of the Chinese of indulging in Chinese “role models” is just absurd. Of course Oppenheimer (of the Manhattan project) and Fermi are taught to Chinese kids, after all it wasn’t China who invented nuclear bombs. One of your countrymen, Charles Darwin is almost god here in China. I am glad that you caught yourself and realized what a hypocrite you are. The fact is Chinese kids spend more time learning non-Chinese history than the time British or American kids spend learning non-western history. And what the heck is that complaint with “the correct spelling or pronunciation of any of the proper names”? London is Lun Dun (as in taking turns to take a dump), so what? You people are running out of stuff to complaint about and you picked on these trivial stuff. Grow up!
I am in agreement with you and stuart that China must not keep harping on what happened in the past and get hung up with the pathetic victim mentality, which is about the only thing I agree with you people.
September 16th, 2009 at 6:54 am
Again you are not making any sense, Froog. If you have problems with tanks and missiles and what they convey, you should first and foremost protest the massive military spending of the US, its military bases that are scattering around the world and it is ongoing war efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. You should also condemn the little sidekick known as the UK who is always more than happy to synchronize every move from the US.
You complained about me labelling you a hypocrite. Yet again you gave me the perfect reason. Chinese kids spend relatively quite a lot of time studying foreign history, I remember when I was in middle school we dedicated two full semesters on foreign history and we were tested on it. Sure Chinese kids might have forgotten most of what they learned, but can you blame them? If you accuse the Chinese of spending too little time learning foreign history than you need to show us how kids in the UK spend more time learning non-western history. Of course we have to keep in mind that China being such an old, long and sprawling civilization means it is natural Chinese kids spend quite a lot of time studying their own history.
You tell me Chinese depiction of the west is biased? Sure, we are all guilty of our biases. Show me exactly how impartial the british depiction of China, especially the PRC history is, will you?
And you are complaining about debates in English being too narrowly focused? Ha, why don’t you show us how debates in Chinese done in British schools are any better?
September 16th, 2009 at 7:06 am
“That’s pretty tired and lame. In fact it’s just the sort of response that Kai over at CNReviews or Jeremiah of Granite Studio would call a tu quoque defence. And they’d be right.”
Call it whatever you want, stuart. Just answer the damn question: Why are you saying what the Chinese are doing today is worse than what the British were doing centuries, or decades ago? Why? How?
” How so? By what measure?”
OK, let’s see: Since the dawn of history, how many countries/peoples has China invaded, conquered and enslaved? What about the British? Mind you that the UK was a global colonial empire, China was not.
“One example for you. Any idea how many Africans are losing their livelihoods because they are being undercut by the influx of cheap Chinese labour and goods? ”
True, but yet many more Africans saw their lives and standard of living improved thanks to these cheap Chinese goods. You think they could afford your pricey yet crappy British products? This is nothing new: Certain people in less competitive countries are suffering because people in more competitive are able to produce the same goods and services cheaper, therefore they experience loss of jobs. We see that happening in the US. We see that happening even in China (as some operations have moved to cheaper places like Vietnam and India). So what?
“Sure, but your lists were incomplete. But it’s refreshing to know that the Tubo, Khitans, and Jurchens come in for same Chinese textbook nuance as the Japanese and the Brits.”
Incomplete? Then kindly provide me with the complete list. I am waiting. Tubo, Khitans and Jurchens etc. of course are not mentioned in the same light as the Japanese and the Brits are. After all many of those became Chinese themselves.
September 16th, 2009 at 7:12 am
“The real question is what influences have given you – and others – the false perception that our attitudes can be described in this way?
It’s a lot like the nauseatingly trite “why do you hate China?” that serves as a response to anything perceived as less than complimentary. And of course by responding (as the framers of the question well knew), one inadvertently lends credibility to the premise of the question.”
Are you hearing yourself, stuart? You people have to be the most self-righteous, ignorant and yet assertive (you think you know everything, so you think), preachy bunch of people that mankind has ever produced. I don’t think you hate China, not at all. Hate is too strong. Actually I wish that you would hate China and let it be the end of the story. The problem is many of you people think that you are actually looking out for China, that you are actually doing China a great service with your condescending attitude and ill-informed and narrow-minded brain cells.
You don’t need to tell the Chinese or anybody what their own experience was. You don’t need to tell the Chinese how to run their country. Clean up your own mess, make your country the utopia that we all look up to before you come and try to show the Chinese a thing or two.
September 16th, 2009 at 9:57 am
Two whole semesters of ‘world history’? Wow!
For us in the UK, it’s about half of our entire study of history. For 4 or 5 years. And, honestly, I don’t think that’s enough. Until recently, we had a very narrow focus on ‘modern Europe’, with little or nothing on the US, and absolutely nothing about China or anywhere else. Not good. But two semesters is really not very much at all, nothing to brag of.
I do disapprove of the amount of military spending in the US. It’s just not relevant to anything we’re discussing here. This is a China blog, not a USA blog. If they were planning to have a procession of tanks on the Mall in Washington, then there might be a valid comparison – but there isn’t. And I did begin my participation in this thread by criticising excessive patriotism – and poor history teaching – in the US.
You still haven’t read that Wikipedia essay on the word ‘hypocrisy’, have you, Pffef? You should restrain yourself from using the word until have developed at least the beginnings of an understanding of what it means.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:48 am
Sigh.
Pffef, I did explain that most of the stuff I was referring to was in academic articles – which are either restricted, or not available on the Web, or only available for a fee (I did find one by a Zheng Bijian – one of the ones I worked on, I think – but the link to the full text was dead).
Projections for “China’s rise” based around the year 2050 really are ubiquitous – partly because it’s a nice round number, mid-point of the century, and partly because it fits into China’s cycle of 5-year plans (beginning of the 20th plan, I think), and partly because it’s the PRC’s centenary (imagine how many tanks will roll for that one!). CASS produces a report on this, I think, every year. It’s pretty vapid stuff, but I found this one of the more interesting ones – http://english.people.com.cn/200509/06/eng20050906_206894.html
Chinese policy documents have for some time been focusing on 2050 as a significant year because by that time China should have become the world’s leading economy. In fact, those projections have gradually edged forwards, and now they are hoping to achieve this by around 2040, or perhaps even sooner (not because hopes for China’s growth have improved, but because those for the USA have slumped after the financial crisis). These recent figures from Goldman Sachs suggest that by 2050 China will be way ahead of the USA in GNP:
http://www.china-profile.com/data/tab_gnp_projection_1.htm
As I pointed out, this is a bit of a tedious exercise because…. well, I’m in China, where the Internet is so heavily filtered at the moment that Google searches around “China” tend to run very slowly or get timed out completely. It’s also a Herculean task because there are just so damn many results! And most of them are written in the most horrible, cliche-ridden Chinese officialese. China+development+2050 yields around 5,000 returns. I suggest adding -”scientific concept” to try to make that number more manageable.
Why didn’t you know this? I don’t know. Ostrich Syndrome, I must suppose.
September 16th, 2009 at 10:56 am
@ oldsummer palace
“We used to talk a few times back in the Peony Square in Luoyang in 2005, Stuart.”
Hao jiu bu jian, Patrick.
“Zhi Ren Zhi Mian Bu Zhi Xin”
Given that China is a culture of distrust, isn’t that the same as saying ‘at the end of the day you can’t really trust anyone’? This reminds me of those people referred to as ‘friends of China’ – which is basically a term for those who never find fault or criticise.
Just because I disagree with you about some issues relating to China doesn’t mean I’m not your friend, Patrick. You made a good impression on the few occasions we met and I don’t allow the impersonal nature of cyber-discussion to change that view.
I hope everything is going well in Singapore and that you’re still enjoying the EPL.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:15 am
“I am in agreement with you and stuart that China must not keep harping on what happened in the past and get hung up with the pathetic victim mentality”
Excellent. I’m always one to take the positives.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:17 am
“Chinese tanks can’t hurt anyone”
Recent history is not on your side with that assertion.
September 16th, 2009 at 11:25 am
“Are you hearing yourself, stuart?…”
Sure, I thought I made a great point.
“…You people have to be the most self-righteous, ignorant and yet assertive, preachy bunch of people that mankind has ever produced.”
A point which, sadly, appears to have sailed right by. But thanks for providing such wonderful entertainment the last few days. I hope the effort hasn’t been too costly – you do seem to be very exciteable.
September 17th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Froog,
First I must say that I am glad that you were at least TRYING to give me something.
The China Daily article doesn’t mention anything about China planning to become the No.1 by 2050, check again. The second link you provided is based on projections from Goldman Sachs, how can one pin this on the Chinese government is beyond me.
And come to think of it, what’s wrong with China or anyone, the UK included, having ambitions to move up the ladder?
September 17th, 2009 at 7:58 am
stuart,
Chinese tanks can only crush some Vietnamese infantry and Chinese protesters, other than that, not much. And last time this happened it was 20 years ago. British war planes are bombing and killing foreigners in a remote country that borders China as we speak.
THAT, is the definition of hypocrisy, by the way Froog. I don’t need Wikipedia to tell me what a hypocrite is. We have two right here!
And stuart, no matter how benign your intentions might have been, you people often come off as condescending jerks. This is not how you communicate. I am not saying that you people should not criticize anybody, but if you people had wanted to influence others (like the Chinese) to change, you people have failed miserably.
September 17th, 2009 at 10:57 am
Pfeffer,
I refer you to the last paragraph of my comment No. 26.
“I am not saying that you people should not criticize anybody” – actually, that’s exactly what you are saying, with your perverse and inaccurate, self-devised “definition” of hypocrisy.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:41 am
“Chinese tanks can only crush some Vietnamese infantry and Chinese protesters, other than that, not much.”
Are you seriously suggesting that the PLA are not a potent military machine, regionally at the very least? Are you really of the opinion that they’re not going to see action before the next decade is out?
And returning to the topic, when conflict does arise, there will be no body of opinion, no dissenting voice, and no protests outside Zhongnanhai in opposition. But there will be a sea of red flags in the hands of young Chinese screaming their love for China and their hatred for some border state. Who among them will stand up and say, ‘I think what we’re doing is wrong.’?
“British war planes are bombing and killing foreigners in a remote country that borders China as we speak.”
I can’t imagine a less nuanced take on what’s happening in Afghanistan, and the reasons behind it. But you inadvertently raise a worthy point.
Take a look at desperation and chaos in some countries bordering China, most notably Afghanistan and Pakistan, although North Korea, Burma, and Nepal certainly worth a second glance. The Chinese response? Charitably one would call it strategic inertia.
September 17th, 2009 at 11:47 am
“…you people often come off as condescending jerks.”
That’s a common misperception, itself a product of the ‘arrogant foreigner’ myth perpetuated in the Chinese education. It’s also why you often use the term ‘you people.’
September 17th, 2009 at 4:31 pm
The simple truth is events and people such as the following are MUCH MORE effective in breeding Chinese nationalism:
(i) bombing of the Chinese ambassy in Belgrade;
(ii) the siding of West’s media and politicians/activists/people with Tibetan and Uygur rioters with no sympathy shown for those Chinese civilians killed and injured;
(iii) Chinese athlete Jin Jin being roughed up in a wheel chair on the street of Paris;
(iv) the “I-have-the-moral-high-ground”, arrogant, hypocritical, and even racist people like you and your friend F.
September 17th, 2009 at 7:55 pm
@ in-ur-face-fenqing
Your moniker is too much of a mouthful; in future I think I’ll call you ‘cuddles’.
“The simple truth is events and people such as the following are MUCH MORE effective in breeding Chinese nationalism:”
No. The ‘events’ you cite (and misrepresent) only created nationalistic fervour because nationalistic feelings were already present and the Chinese media’s spin played the fenqing like a banjo.
Hope this explanation helps, cuddles. Thanks for stopping by.
September 18th, 2009 at 1:18 am
Sorry, Stuart – I just kicked in-ur-face off my blog because he was just being way too freakin’ tedious. He has some kind of OCD thing going on where he keeps returning to months-old posts and trying to elaborate on the completely misconceived point he’s already failed to impress anyone with half a dozen times before.
‘Cuddles’ I like. I think I’ll use that on him if he tries to come back.
I wonder if Mr Pffefer ever considers how he comes off to others in his comments. Really, Pffef, do you pause for a moment now and then and really think about that?
With Cuddles, his screen name says it all, and there’s really no need to read his comments (although they vary so wildly in tone, relevance, and level of English that I rather suspect he is in fact a tag-team of diverse ‘anti-CNN’ stooges). But Mr P, I think, actually aspires to get involved in a proper debate; and occasionally manages it. It’s a shame to see him acting as if he’s overdosing on diet pills.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:48 am
No problem, Froog.
To the best of my knowledge the cuddly one is a new manifestation on this site, so I’ll tolerate the tedium in the short term. Besides, how can you dislike someone called ‘cuddles’. To throw him out would be a bit like mistreating a cat, and that’s unthinkable.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:51 am
Froog,
What you people are doing is not criticizing, what you people are doing is preaching, nagging and lecturing. And to make it worst, you people think you know everything when in fact you people are among the most ill-informed, ignorant folks out there, yet you are so assertive thinking you have the answers for everything, at least for China. I am sorry you people, you people have nothing.
September 18th, 2009 at 7:54 am
stuart,
Chinese tanks can certainly be menacing, but they will never be as menacing as British war planes and soldiers in foreign countries killing foreigners, including many foreign civilians, that is what I am saying.
Again, you people can play dumb all you want, China currently has ZERO soldiers outside the border of China without under some sort UN peacekeeping arrangement. The Brits are all over the place.
Is China responsible for those countries that border China being poor? What’s China’s response? What is Britain’s response? Other than killing and destroying, what are you british capable of doing?
September 18th, 2009 at 7:58 am
stuart,
I know a Chinese kid who came to the US when he was 5 years old, literally had no Chinese education whatsoever, he detests you people for all the things I mentioned as much as I and many others do. We don’t have to put ourselves through Chinese education to realize what a bunch of self-righteous idiots you people are.
Yes, you people. Westerners. I am not saying ALL westerners. Certainly MANY of them.
September 18th, 2009 at 8:02 am
Froog,
I don’t see calling a spade a spade a problem, not at all. With folks like you and stuart, there is nothing that I won’t say to you. The truth is too much for you to handle? Not my problem. Don’t like my manners? You can delete my comments, ban me or do whatever you want. Why should I treat you two any different like the rest of them?
September 18th, 2009 at 8:05 am
By the way Froog, I hope you saw my comment #77 which basically debunked all the allegations that you have made about the Chinese having systematic plans to become No.1 by 2050. Once again you have got nothing.
On the account of calling you two hypocrites, I stand unchallenged. I haven’t heard any of you condemning the UK war machine and its foreign policy. Don’t give me the “this is a blog about China” BS again. It is so old.
September 18th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Ooh, ooh, can we get to No. 100, do you think??
It’s sooo exciting!
September 18th, 2009 at 12:30 pm
Pffefer –
‘hypocrisy’ properly means falsely professing to adhere to a moral standard when you do not in fact do so.
It is commonly extended to mean holding someone else to a higher moral standard than yourself, which is not, I think, a very useful usage, but is becoming so common that it may be a lost battle. However, this is really restricted to the sphere of public life – i.e., to politicians, who are expected to lead by example, and thus will compromise their authority if they advocate policies or behaviours (for their own citizens or for foreign countries) with which their private behaviour is inconsistent.
As Dr Johnson famously put it (quoted in that Wikipedia article you obviously haven’t deigned to read, Pffefer): “Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having the courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others those attempts which he neglects himself.”
Holding others to moral standards which I fall short of myself is NOT hypocrisy; though ‘double standards’ are a culpable moral inconsistency, this is a horrible misuse of the useful word hypocrisy. It’s only hypocrisy if I pretend to have achieved that moral perfection myself. (And I don’t. Never have. It’s a constant battle, etc.)
Moreover – and this is the really important point that you obstinately ignore over and over and over again, Pffefer – even if Stuart and I (and other people you don’t like or can’t understand) are hypocrites, that does not invalidate our opinions. Even very bad men (and women) can still make useful and pertinent observations.
I also think that you are falling into a common Chinese habit-of-thought that I alluded to way back in Comment No. 11 – conflating the people with their government. Sure, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Gordon Brown and David Milliband can be taken as being representative of the state because they are leaders of their government – but why on earth should Stuart or I be held in any way responsible for the actions of the British or American governments, now or at any point in history??? It’s just absurd.
Constantly harping on all the bad things other governments have done is simply IRRELEVANT to the discussion here. And extremely tedious and childish. And, when you turn to bad things they’ve done against China, you are indulging in the ‘victim mentality’ which you purport to abjure, Pffefer.
And resorting to name-calling – in particular, misusing the word ‘hypocrite’ in a personal attack on an interlocutor – (as you have done so tiresomely OFTEN on this post, Pffefer) is definitive of not having a clue how to debate. Every time you do that, you lose respect: people are just going to stop reading your comments. Maybe even blog-owners will stop allowing you to post your comments. And I think that would be a shame. You do often have worthwhile things to say, Pffef – but you’re obscuring them with this white noise of ‘hypocrisy’. PLEASE stop it.
September 18th, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Yay – Comment No. 86, a new “you people” record!!
6 times in 68 words. That’s nearly 20% of the entire comment! Way to go, Pffef!!!
September 18th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Pffefer -
“Is China responsible for those countries that border China being poor?”
If you think she’s not at least in part responsible, I suggest you do more research.
“I know a Chinese kid who came to the US when he was 5 years old … he detests you people…”
I blame the parents. And he’s not Chinese, he’s American.
“The truth is too much for you to handle? Not my problem. Don’t like my manners? You can delete my comments…”
Truth? Well, only in the sense that your attitude and opinions are reflective of the ‘them and us’ culture fostered by the Chinese government.
Manners? Unfortunately, pffef, you do have a habit of surrendering to low-end rants in many of your comments. Occasional good points get lost when you do this.
“On the account of calling you two hypocrites, I stand unchallenged.”
Whatever.
“I haven’t heard any of you condemning the UK war machine and its foreign policy.”
It may be ‘old’ but this blog is about issues relating to China. But let me try a scenario that involves the Motherland:
1. Foreign troops (including Brits) exit Afghanistan. China rejoices at the humbling of foreign oppressors.
2. The Taliban take over, increasing influence and instability in neighbouring Pakistan. China gets nervous, blames foreign powers for not finishing the job.
3. Afghan women who had the temerity to seek education under the coalition umbrella get stoned to death. China says nothing.
September 18th, 2009 at 5:10 pm
I find this very entertaining. Don’t you think you guys should have a beer summit or something?
September 19th, 2009 at 8:54 am
Yes, I am a proud fenqing! I know you don’t like it; on the other hand it is not meant to please people like you.
About your original topic: Debating about teaching children to love their own countries is like debating if a man needs oxygen. Totally pointless topic!
As for your comment on Chinese media, CCP made them toothless/spineless, most of the time giving to ordinary Chinese people the false impression that most people ouside this country “love China”, especially before the March of last year. Bao Xi Bu Bao You–report the postive and hide/minimize the negative. Moreover, some Chinese media (online and print ) are now infiltrated by the “West-is-always-right”, “every-thing-chinese-must-be-bad “type of journalists, commentators and editors. You guys should thank them, especially CCP for doing this: otherwise there would be a lot more nationalism; otherwise there would be a Chinese talk show discussing freely people like you (called “Wai Guo Peng You” in CCP jargons), in the aftermath of which you get your ass kicked on the Chinese street, etc.
September 19th, 2009 at 10:41 am
@ cuddles
“Yes, I am a proud fenqing”
So much anger; so little understanding why.
September 19th, 2009 at 11:15 am
Yes, and you see, this is nothing like the Cuddles I’ve known. Maybe he’s just discovered his GrammarCheck facility.
Cuddles, I think our starting point on here – ever such a long time ago – was that kids don’t really need to be actively taught to love their country at all. It tends to happen naturally – through liking the place that you live, becoming familiar with its literature and culture, taking a pride in the success (or otherwise) of its sports teams, etc. The concern about the approach in China is about how much people are taught to love their country, and how this is achieved. Many people worry – Chinese too, not just foreigners – that nationalist feeling in China is sometimes excessive and dangerous. So, we wonder about what goes on in schools, whether there should be less teaching of patriotism, not more. To play with your analogy – if you give a man too much oxygen, he dies.
The prevalence of the West-is-always-better-than-China belief is interesting. Is it something the propaganda has not been able to root out? Or is it consciously fostered, as an incentive to advance (or to engender wariness, competitiveness, hostility)? Or is it an unwanted by-product of other propaganda? I suspect it’s mainly the latter – blowback from the ‘century of humiliation’ narrative (although that, presumably, is prioritized in CCP propaganda for purpose no. 2).
September 19th, 2009 at 11:17 am
Oh my god! We killed Pffefer?! We’re bastards!
September 20th, 2009 at 10:44 am
do you know how and how much patriotism is taught in Chinese school?
Based on your claim that Chinese kids have ” never heard of Oppenheimer or Fermi” and on the fact you can’t read or speak Chinese, the answer to the above question is emphatically “NO”! (Can you tell me what song they were singing in that BBC vieo? It was not even a patriotic song!)
It is amazing that you are writing so much on a subject that you have no knowledge of.
As for your conjecture on the “West-is-always-right” component of Chinese media, I would say that conjecture is as true as the one about me being a tag-team. They label themselves as ?????. They don’t like, even want to wipe out Chinese patriotism and nationalism, which they perceive as a critical supporting force for CCP. They believe in that people like you guys (i.e, external forces) can change China; their big goal is to replace CCP.
So why don’t you two guys get hooked up with them now? Hurry up!
September 20th, 2009 at 10:50 am
damn! this blog does not support Chinese characters!
“?????” is Zi You Zhu Yi Zhe (“liberals”).
September 20th, 2009 at 11:32 am
“damn! this blog does not support Chinese characters!”
It’s what I like to call ‘blogging without Chinese characteristics’.
“do you know how and how much patriotism is taught in Chinese school?”
Your reply suggests that, having been exposed to the system, you are no longer in a position to judge. You thought you were being ‘cuddled’ at school, but in fact you were succumbing to the processes of hard-wiring.
September 20th, 2009 at 12:17 pm
It really bothers me when middle school kids tell me they get very angry with Western countries after their history classes. History is supposed to be studied objectively. It’s scary when young people are taught to hate others for what the latter’s ancestors did. Really, it’s time to move on.
September 20th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
“you are no longer in a position to judge.”
I am not the one who is doing the judging on the Chinese patriotism education–I support it. What makes you think you are qualified to judge?
If you want to be taken seriously, research on these “patriotic edution texbooks” (I did not have such in my days) or history text books or any textbooks that you are suspicious of, then write like a scholar, NOT like an activist(or a journalist)!
September 20th, 2009 at 2:14 pm
Therese:
“History is supposed to be studied objectively. It’s scary when young people are taught to hate others for what the latter’s ancestors did. ”
What if history is taught objectively, yet the students are still angered BY the atrocities of western countries? Because of this, Chinese students should not be taught this part of history at all? We are not allowed to be angry?
On the other hand, do the very students who tell you that they are “angry with western countries” hate YOU (I suppose you a westerner)? And how are you “wai guo peng you” being treated by common Chinese folks and officials(CCP or otherwise)? Do you detect hatred from them?
Chinese people know how to differentiate
between your ancestors and you; and your daily experience in China is the living testinomy of that!
September 20th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
“What makes you think you are qualified to judge?”
What manner of blinkered thinking makes you assume I’m not?
“We are not allowed to be angry?”
Anger has its place, but the hatred and anger displayed in the Chinese classroom is both misdirected and unhealthy. It’s the product of a selective and emotionally charged view of history, carefully nurtured to create the nationalistic chip that so many Chinese carry around like a badge of honour.
September 20th, 2009 at 4:40 pm
@ Therese
“It really bothers me when middle school kids tell me they get very angry with Western countries after their history classes. History is supposed to be studied objectively.”
Exactly. Which is why ‘learning to love China’ is easily equated with ‘learning to hate non-China’.
September 21st, 2009 at 4:00 am
“a selective and emotionally charged view of history”
Substantiate your claim by something solid (from Chinese history text books)!
The modern Chinese history I learned also had the other side:
self-examination/self-criticizing of , e.g, the backwardness of Qing Dynasty, especially when it was at the end. (Now the zi you zhu yi histoians are trying to add a self-loathing component; the extremists are trying to hide the atrocity component.)
Your complaining about the western atrocitiy part of the Chinese history causing anger to your ancestors is ridiculously assertive; and your fear of being hated, due solely to what your ancesters did, is “unfounded in China” and is disproved by your daily experience on the Chinese street.
Once again, let me emphasize this: what matters is what’s going on NOW, examples of which are (i-iv) listed in my post #82; what you should do is to not make that list longer!
I am done with yo’al here.
September 21st, 2009 at 10:36 am
“Substantiate your claim by something solid (from Chinese history text books)!”
I think you misunderstand the meaning of ‘selective’. Clue: it’s not so much about what IS in the textbooks.
“I am done with yo’al here.”
Come back cuddles, all is forgiven.
September 21st, 2009 at 12:09 pm
I think Cuddles just tagged Pffefer…
September 21st, 2009 at 12:32 pm
Cuddles, I agree that – fortunately – one does not encounter much “hatred” against foreigners on the streets of China. However – unfortunately – one encounters little else from commenters like you. There’s a compartmentalization of thinking with many Chinese, I think: I’m sure you wouldn’t be violent or unpleasant if I met you in person, but on here…
Foreigners living in China are familiar with the phenomenon where the day after some heavy anti-foreigner media coverage (this happened last, I think, with the vilification of the French over Sarkozy’s meeting with the Dalai Lama – and note, it was vilification of the French people, not just of their government or their President), it is almost impossible to get a taxi. It’s a relatively trivial inconvenience; but it is a worrying indication of the immediacy of impact of propaganda.
If the Chinese are readily able to differentiate between me and my ancestors, why did so many of them rail against me for what “you British” did in 1860 during the Yuanmingyuan bronzes furore?
I was interested in A Chinese‘s polite note that he had studied Oppenheimer and Fermi at school – once. He’s an exceptionally bright student. And perhaps he is exceptionally interested in physics. And it may have been an exceptional experience. I don’t know if this is a regular part of the curriculum in all Chinese schools. All I can say is that – of the hundreds of young adults I have talked to about this with during my time in China – NOT ONE has ever recognised the names (or achievements) of Oppenheimer or Fermi. Nine tenths of what we study at school, we forget. Maybe that proportion is even higher in China.
It’s interesting, and worrying, that “liberals” can become a term of abuse for someone like you, Cuddles. And the “Chinese inferiority compared to the West” idea is very, very common here – not at all limited to a handful of dissident intellectuals. I didn’t really conjecture on the origin of this – just offered up some possibilities, and asked you what you thought. And you dodged the question.
September 21st, 2009 at 12:38 pm
“I am not the one who is doing the judging on the Chinese patriotism education–I support it.”
Cuddles, how can you write such a ludicrous, self-contradicting sentence? Choosing to support something is a judgment of it.
We see this kind of thing so often from commenters like you that I must suppose that it is not just an individual shortcoming of your English, but a logical gap somehow rooted in the Chinese language – or at least, in the way English is taught in China.
You seem to equate “judging” with “criticizing” – and that is something foreigners are not allowed to do!
September 22nd, 2009 at 12:33 pm
“You seem to equate ‘judging’ with ‘criticizing’”
The word “judge” has several meanings, including:
“to form an estimate or evaluation of; especially : to form a negative opinion about ” (see online Merriam-Webster).
Don’t tell me you are better than Merriam-Webster! You think your English is so good; yet you do not know this? Not to mention you did not realize that I was teasing him (being a bit sarcastic, if you want) by using the other meaning of “judge”.
I resent your tactic of generalizing someone’s english errors (this time your own error) to make personal attacks, and to attack Chinese language, education system, etc. I asked you before to look at yourself in the mirror: you cannot speak, read and write Chinese after 7 years in China. Obviously, you have not done so.
Sure, you can judge–in fact the second “judge” in my original post meant “judge” in the positive sense. The point is that I am totally disgusted with the fact that you judge(in the positiive sense or otherwise) before doing some solid, basic , not to mention scholarly, research.
September 22nd, 2009 at 1:32 pm
“I’m sure you wouldn’t be violent or unpleasant if I met you in person, but on here…”
If that happened and if we talked about what we are talking about now, I am sure I would be very unpleasant.
“why did so many of them rail against me for what “you British” did in 1860 during the Yuanmingyuan bronzes furore?”
What did you say to them before they railed against you? Many of them? Give me the percentage, because 100 millons is merely less than 1% for China. During our many barbs-tradings, I never mentioned your ancesters–I focus on (i)-(iv).
I think you can put an end to this “Oppenheimer” thing:
every chinese kid who wants to go into science and engineering must take physics in HS, where he is of course mentioned when nuclear physics is done. His name when translated into Chinese is hard to both remember and recognize for Chinese. We have the terms “world’s father of atomic bombs” and “China’s father of atomic bombs”, which may be easier to use.
It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that chinese kids are not told who is the former, in order to boost Chinese pride/nationalism. As ludicrous as worrying about us hating your anscesters so much that we change “Newton’s second law” to ” Confucius’ second law”!
September 22nd, 2009 at 2:01 pm
You’re quite right, Cuddles, I’m a terrible snob about the English language.
If you use the word ‘judge’ without defining a specific, narrow meaning for it, then it can be taken to carry any or all of its meanings. When you then do something which plainly is ‘judging’ in its most common and basic meaning, but imply that you are not ‘judging’ – you look ridiculous.
Yes, I am better than Merriam-Webster, you fool. Not because Merriam-Webster is wrong, but because it doesn’t have the space to illustrate all the different nuances and contexts of the various shades of meaning of a word; that’s something you can only really grasp through decades of experience as a native speaker.
My gripe with folks like you – proud to be fenqing – is that you are attempting to read and participate in a blog that is written in fairly high-level English. You haven’t got much hope of being able to do that unless your English is approaching native speaker fluency; and it obviously isn’t. Nine-tenths of what you say – including that last resort to Merriam-Webster – is based on misunderstandings of what other commenters have said.
September 22nd, 2009 at 2:11 pm
Cuddles, sweetie, calm down.
I never suggested that Chinese kids aren’t told who Oppenheimer is, or that this is part of the scheme to boost China’s pride/nationalism. I merely said that, in my experience, no-one here seemed to know who he is. My wider point here is that foreign history seems to be given a fairly low priority in Chinese schools – and, perhaps, that because of this, it makes less of a lasting impression on the students than the Chinese history they learn (they certainly remember Qian Xuesen far more readily than they remember Oppenheimer). And that is relevant to our consideration of how Chinese nationalism develops.
Failing to learn people’s actual names – and using silly tags like “father of the atom bomb” instead – certainly doesn’t help Chinese students to develop a real understanding of world history (or an ability to converse about it with non-Chinese). And Oppenheimer is a significant figure in history. In every other country in the world, I think, you’d encounter him in the history classroom (for all students), not the physics classroom (for science specialists only).
I can’t follow your last point at all. What has Newton got to do with Confucius???
September 22nd, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Cuddles, everyone I spoke to about the Yuanmingyuan issue evinced some hostility towards the British in general and towards me in particular. I didn’t express any position on the topic – at least, not at first – I was merely interested to know what they thought about it. Admittedly, we’re only talking about a dozen or so people – but the uniformity of response was quite striking. And these weren’t knee-jerk fenqing types.
Dear Cuddles, since you have the advantage of the Chinese language skills and the familiarity with Chinese schooling, why don’t you look at one or two history textbooks and give us some examples of major events in Chinese history which are given an objective and dispassionate treatment? Or of some which are NOT, if you can recognise them?
Your examples in Comment No. 82 are in themselves a pretty good illustration of a “highly selective and emotive” view of history.
I don’t think anyone on this thread has yet said that history teaching in Chinese schools is solely responsible for nationalist feelings in China. There are influences from many other media as well. However, it seems reasonable to assume that history textbooks are at least partly responsible (as they are, to some extent, in every country; it would be amazing if they were NOT). So, I would say that the onus is rather on you to disprove the assumption – if you can.
September 22nd, 2009 at 2:39 pm
Pffefer, if you’re still out there, lurking, sulking,
You’re quite right, of course. China has NO ambitions of displacing the USA as the world’s leading power. Objective predictions of China’s economic growth from capitalist companies like Goldman Sachs are obviously far less reliable than China’s own projections, and are probably part of some devious foreign conspiracy to discredit China. China’s real hopes for growth are far more modest. And even if China should one day approach or surpass the USA in GNP, she will of course continue to modestly defer to the older great powers and not seek to claim a greater slice of geopolitical agenda-setting herself. And she would certainly never indulge in a military technology race, or seek to develop an offensive military capability. And even if these things should come to pass, it could only be as the result of some sort of historical inevitability. One should never suppose that China’s leaders would ever actually try to plan for these things. I mean, it’s not like they’re a bunch of micro-managing technocrats who still follow the old-school Communist model of short-term, medium-term, and long-term central planning based around 5-year cycles. Oh, good heavens, no.
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:06 pm
“…if we talked about what we are talking about now, I am sure I would be very unpleasant.”
Which is, all too often, exactly what happens when governments whip up hostile feelings towards foreigners via selective accounts of history that imbue the recipients with a ‘reparations or revenge’ mentality.
If the responsible course is to discuss China’s past openly without ignoring the darker moments of its own or others making, and to do so objectively without fostering resentment, then the Chinese education system is failing – badly.
The hostility in some of the above comments is testament to that.
September 22nd, 2009 at 3:18 pm
Froog –
I just found comments 115/116 between the Ambien and Viagra peddlars in my spam filter. Not sure why it’s happening but I’m catching them as soon as I can.
September 23rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
“If you use the word ‘judge’ without defining a specific, narrow meaning for it, then it can be taken to carry any or all of its meanings. ”
I would have defined the specfic meaning of a word I used, if I had realized that your reading and analytical skills were at the level of a 5-year-old.
No, not only you are a “terrible snob”, but also a person who blames others for his own failure–a charateristic of yours shown everywhere(almost) in your posts.
I can tolerate your snobishness about English language, for I do have failures in it; but I violently despise that second “trait” of yours!
September 24th, 2009 at 3:28 am
Cuddles, I think I’ve said this to you before over on my blog, but… abuse is so much more effective if it is a) apposite, and b) not far more apposite to yourself.
“5-year old” indeed! There is only one “child” here.
September 25th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
[...] Comment: Ah, yes. The call to arms, a duty which begins very early. [...]
October 17th, 2009 at 12:50 am
Froog
“If you use the word ‘judge’ without defining a specific, narrow meaning for it, then it can be taken to carry any or all of its meanings.”
I don’t agree. Often the context makes it clear that the more restricted meaning of the word “judge” is intended.
“Cuddles, how can you write such a ludicrous, self-contradicting sentence? Choosing to support something is a judgment of it…When you then do something which plainly is ‘judging’ in its most common and basic meaning, but imply that you are not ‘judging’ – you look ridiculous.”
I don’t agree with this either. Announcing that you support something while at the same time denying that you are judging that same thing is not necessarily self-contradictory. (I suppose you could argue that a decision to support something must entail at least a prior judgement that supporting that thing was a desirable course of action…but that wouldn’t constitute a judgement of the same something.)
With respect, I don’t see why you bothered to take in-ur-face fenqing to task for his allegedly self-contradictory sentence. It’s obvious from that sentence & others of his that English is not his first language. His problem was a use of English problem, not an inability to think clearly.
October 17th, 2009 at 8:38 am
Just when I thought it was all over …
October 19th, 2009 at 11:59 am
“Just when I thought it was all over …”
stuart
Apologies for exhuming such relatively trivial matters. I don’t really expect Froog to reply.
However I am still hoping for a response from you to my last post (#106 on 16/10) on the “Obama blows off the Dalai Lama” thread on the Peking Duck blog.
October 19th, 2009 at 1:29 pm
“Apologies for exhuming such relatively trivial matters.”
No problem. Exhume away.
“However I am still hoping for a response from you to my last post … on the Peking Duck blog.”
Oops! Missed that. Let me take a look.